EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

I don’t get the point of the singling out the US.

i don't either, good thing no one has done this here

The point is that the US propaganda machine continues to successfully spin it as the best of all possible worlds to its own population and the world population at large.

― Daniel_Rf, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:37 AM (three minutes ago)

This is very true, and I do wonder if non-Americans can fully grasp the torrent of American exceptionalism that is pumped into you from a young age. That VHS said "Republicans" are the ones who primarily do this says a lot to me

the reason people call america dystopian is because it resembles one if those movies, hope this helps, its not actually that deep… but also it kind of is

people have speakers in their home that listen to and record everything they say, why are we even arguing about this

yes but their quality of life is good

but for how long? amazon echo / google voice / siri / alexa / VR / smart speakers ~~THINK ABT IT~~

just reading the isaac chotiner interview with enes kanter and his arguments are basically verbatim what VHS is saying

Ok, the thread has convinced me that using the dytopiometer to measure nation-states is a bit pointless, but I am curious VHS: what do you make of a place like Canada whose unarguably high quality of life is based on past and present forms of colonialist extraction both within and without Canada? How would you describe that situation? Dystopia doesn't seem right to me either, but how would you describe a society that achieves such comfort by stealing land, poisoning the atmosphere, exploiting global labour, etc.? There are classic fictional dystopias that are hierarchical in this exact manner.

I mean, I guess I'm saying "earth is a dystopia" which is maybe a bit absurd too, but idk (lol xp)

― rob, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:39 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It's colonialism, which sucks and should be prevented as much as possible. I worked a lot with victims of the residential school system over the past two years, I am well aware of the horrific origins of my standards of living. If the sentence is 'Being a FNIM in Canada is a dystopia' I would agree, if it were 'Canada is a dystopia' then no, it isn't.

Also people outside of the US are very aware of American exceptionalism, thinking we wouldn't be is condescending (in a very american way). I just believe that the problems Americans are facing are standard problems most societies have to deal with, the only unique thing is exceptionalism distorts the image.

That americans happen to deal with these problems with an accumulated wealth and power that places them among the luckiest of the world, if the nation decides to vote Trump and a dumb wealth tax instead of building a health care system, it is the fault of americans, it doesn't change the fact that being born american is mostly having won the lottery.

That there is a reason why Bangladeshis move to the US and Americans don't move to the Bangladesh, yes, foreign policy has a large horrific impact on Bangladesh but its citizens are not stupid enough to think that life is Bangladesh is better than in the US, it has nothing to do with American 'propaganda', they are smart, they have the made the calculus, it's just, life in the US is better, and it might be for reasons an american with no experience living in Bangladesh won't understand.

That saying the US is a better place than most of the world is neither absolving US of its domestic problems (I am firmly in the single payer health care and no guns camp) or its horrendous foreign policy.

i think it's condescending that you aren't reading the posts of anyone who is arguing with you

That would be inconvenient to the shite he wants to post

That americans happen to deal with these problems with an accumulated wealth and power that places them among the luckiest of the world, if the nation decides to vote Trump and a dumb wealth tax instead of building a health care system, it is the fault of americans, it doesn't change the fact that being born american is mostly having won the lottery.

like this is ridiculous. which americans have the benefit of the accumulated wealth and power? which decided not to build a health care system? i didn't decide to have a senate, or an electoral college, or a cabal of catholics who are going to decide i don't have a constitutional right to an abortion.

go ahead and tell me the definition of cabal next though

I mean maybe all countries are utter shit for quite a swathe of people, or maybe Americans living somewhere where school shootings are routine, healthcare is the most common form of bankruptcy, and the government throws the money needed to solve the preceding problems on its army might look at other developed countries where these things don’t happen and draw the obvious conclusion, it’s a choice and the choice is for US citizens to suffer. And that’s not even touching on foreign policy. But sure, tell them they have first world problems and should be more grateful. Cunt.

Wonder which lottery Tamir Rice won

i live in baltimore. i think i'm going to take a walk to johns hopkins hospital (a non-profit health care system that is extremely predatory and has a history of unethical human experimentation) and tell all the lead-poisoned children in the neighborhood how fortunate they are. oh but i'm not saying the US doesn't have domestic problems! ok then why do you object to people talking about them?

I mean, tell me this wasn’t completely insane and don’t they still not have clean water there?!

come to the Mississippi delta VHS I will show you dystopia

somehow now the definition is that it's only dystopia for the people who are doing badly, which is confusing given that it contains "topia"

it's been consistently like 20 degrees above F the norm here for most of the month, I'd call that just by itself dystopian , nevermind the daily mass murder.

Lots of folks back East, they say, is leavin' home every day
Beatin' the hot old dusty way to the California line.
'Cross the desert sands they roll,
Gettin' out of that old dust bowl
They think they're goin' to a sugar bowl
but here's what they find...
Now, the police at the port of entry say:
"You're number fourteen thousand for today!"

[Chorus]
Oh, if you ain't got the do-re-mi, boys
If you ain't got the do-re-mi
You better go back to beautiful Texas
Oklahoma, Kansas, Georgia, Tennessee.

California is a garden of Eden,
A paradise to live in or see!
But believe it or not
you won't find it so hot
If you ain't got the do-re-mi

[Verse 2]
You want to buy you a home or a farm, that can't deal nobody harm
Or take your vacation by the mountains or sea
But don't swap your old cow for a car
You better stay right where you are
You better take this little tip from me
'Cause I look through the want ads every day.
And the headlines on the papers always say...

[Chorus]
If you ain't got the do-re-mi, boys
If you ain't got the do-re-mi
You better go back to beautiful Texas
Oklahoma, Kansas, Georgia, Tennessee.

California is a garden of Eden,
A paradise to live in or see!
But believe it or not
you won't find it so hot
If you ain't got the do-re-mi

ok then why do you object to people talking about them?

― towards fungal computer (harbl), Friday, December 10, 2021 11:08 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I never objected to americans talking about their problems. Just objecting to the notion that the US is a terrible place to live in. The ironic thing now is the constant listing of problems in the US when the point is that if you take any international standard the US does actually well. I don't know, read about other countries or travel. There's a world out there.

lol

Taking Flint's water problem as an example of the US being a terrible place to live in when the US still ranks way above most nations when it comes to clean water and water security is exactly the sort of short-sightedness I'm talking about.

I suppose even when it comes to be flawed americans need a way to feel exceptional.

I’m not American you fucking weapon. You couldn’t even pay me to live there.

no one is arguing the proposition that "the US is a terrible place to live in." that would be a broad generalization just like it would be to say that everyone in the US has clean drinking water.

It’s ok that the richest country in the world has huge problems because at least you weren’t born somewhere else. Was that about it? Can’t imagine the nuke stockpile is of much comfort to people living below the poverty line.

any international standard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Also people outside of the US are very aware of American exceptionalism, thinking we wouldn't be is condescending (in a very american way).

Was this in response to my post about the torrent of American exceptionalism? If so, thank you for the textbook bad-faith reading of what I was saying. I wasn't born in the US and I've lived in Canada for 7+ years now, so I think I can with some authority assert that there are aspects of national acculturation that cannot be vicariously experienced, like being compelled to recite the pledge of allegiance every morning for years of my life. Of course I'm not shocked non-Americans are aware that that happens, but actually have to do it is different, no?

i can't get over the accusations of condescension coupled with the instruction to "read about other countries"

The you-should-be-grateful types aren’t actually interested in anything getting better anywhere.

If the sentence is 'Being a FNIM in Canada is a dystopia' I would agree, if it were 'Canada is a dystopia' then no, it isn't.

Again, I basically agree that saying "Canada is a dystopia" is a bit self-aggrandizing for a white settler, but my question was: what do you call it? Obviously I'm not expecting you to say "utopia," but how do you characterize a society marked by such devastating inequality, even if you, personally, are on the lucky side of the inequity? If FNIM experienced colonization as an apocalypse, what does it mean to live comfortably in their post-apocalypse?

Was the antebellum south not a dystopia?

notwithstanding our high average yearly income and high standard of living relative to other countries we are still living with the whole antebellum south thing with the school board members and teachers getting death threats over teaching about it

Considering most societies have and are being marked by large devastating inequality and injustice, I just take it as the norm. So I just call it society. Within that norm, the US does well. I believe that americans and people from the West in general take a lot of stuff for granted. Having lived in a country where often there is no sewage system, were being a woman means being forced married at an early age, were access to vaccination is probably still a year away at best and where the actual best prospect for your kids is moving to the US (despite all its flaws) with people begging me to help them doing so almost every day, it just sounds disgusting when a white american calls their nation 'a dystopia', I'm pushing back against that, it's the same self-aggrandizing sentiment from the white settler in Canada but the relationship is between rich and poor nations instead. Also, I misunderstood your post about exceptionalism, I am sorry about that, there was no bad faith there.

xpost to rob

so tonight, thank God it's them instead of you

Was the antebellum south not a dystopia?

Wasn't apartheid a dystopian system? Given that the South basically operated under the same system for a century postbellum, it seems pretty clear that both are dystopian.

Was Brave New World dystopian? Anyone read Always Coming Home by Le Guin? It presents the strongest perspective on modern America being an ecological dystopia that I've seen.

I do think the reason the issue can be so emotionally fraught is largely based on the rapidly changing expectations for America's prognosis. My take is that much of our emotional state is based on changes in future expectations.

I was thinking about Le Guin too, specifically The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”.

lol "technically its not a dystopia"

also lol at complaining on a thread about two american pundits that yr sick of things being so america-centric

Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”.

No she shouldn't, because she's a great writer and she lets the story itself do that

See also her classic "The New Atlantis"

https://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/the-new-atlantis/

I've seen The One Who Walk Away From Omelas referenced quite a bit lately. I should read it again, it's been awhile. I don't think I've read The New Atlantis yet either so thanks eephus!

Always Coming Home is novel-length but it's not really a novel, more like an anthropological study of society in northern California, post-ecological collapse. It's a challenging read, I wouldn't highly recommend it to normals for sure. The way the characters talk about modern America really is horrific tho, I remember one description of a freeway that made me want to never drive again. I don't think freeways themselves are definitively dystopian but I do think the overall level of environmental destruction cooked into American society is pretty fucked.

_ Naturally she should have conceived of a VHS type for the story to pop up and scold the child and go “you have no idea how good you have it, you could be in Bangladesh”._

No she shouldn't, because she's a great writer and she lets the story itself do that

The New Atlantis:

He said, “Behavior mod is expensive. Even just the drugs. They save it mostly for the VIPs. But I’m afraid they got a notion I might be important after all. I got questioned a lot the last couple of months. About my ‘foreign contacts.’” He snorted. “The stuff that got published abroad, I suppose. So I want to be careful and make sure it’s just a Camp again next time, and not a Federal Hospital.”

“Simon, were they . . . are they cruel, or just righteous?”

He did not answer for a while. He did not want to answer. He knew what I was asking. He knew by what thread hangs hope, the sword, above our heads.

That last bit, that's what I was trying to get at with my blather about 'expectations'.

The prosecution rests:

I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American. pic.twitter.com/jkeWa0bzQD

— Jimmy Traina (@JimmyTraina) December 9, 2021

ive millions of computers surveilling me no access to health care and a sitting president who btw is an absolute technicolor freak attempted a coup this shit is fucking dystopian dude

yglesias, van horn, and enes "freedom" kanter: no no no no no no no

ive millions of computers surveilling me no access to health care and a sitting president who btw is an absolute technicolor freak attempted a coup this shit is fucking dystopian dude

The word utopia was coined in 1516 from Ancient Greek by the Englishman Sir Thomas More for his Latin text Utopia. It literally translates as “no place”, coming from the Greek: οὐ (“not”) and τόπος (“place”)

Every τόπος has elements of dysfunction, so if all that is required to define a place as a dystopia is naming several of its prominent (and very real) dysfunctions, then everywhere at any time is a dystopia. Arguing if the USA is "a dystopia" or not basically just comes down to which pile of attributes you poke at.

yeah totally man

Oh hell yeah, Wonder Twins activate!

Seems to me that a) a great many Americans experience inadequate living conditions (often as the direct result of structural and institutional failures), b) the U.S. nevertheless has above-average living conditions compared to the rest of the world, and c) it is kind of dickish and missing-the-point to cite B in response to A, even if A is shorthanded with a specific word that you find hyperbolic and imprecise.