EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

I taught college students over Zoom for two semesters. Not the same experience as teaching kids obv, and while I didn't loathe it I would never do it again unless compelled to.

my friend that taught special ed was depressed all year, it just didn't work and the kids were all from a pretty low income urban district, he just started losing kids as it went on, they had so many technical difficulties because it was hard for some of them

I dont know maybe teachers are the one group of people in the world who don't like sleeping in and saving an hour or more of commute time every day.

In exchange for having to corral 30 children and listen to them scream over your iMac speakers all day.

It's a bit different if your WFH experience is a couple of zoom meetings with adults and typing in Excel while you listen to podcasts.

are we really have this convo based on a mcardle tweet???

now the convo is based more on o. nate's posts. megan's idiot tweet was just the catalyst.

rob
Posted: December 9, 2021 at 3:51:26 PM
are we really have this convo based on a mcardle tweet???

see what these freaks do to us

Yeah, I would say, *I* like working from home way more than my friends who are teachers like working from home. Among people I know, teachers are among those who like it least.

You could spin out a wonk take that exaggeration of the US’ problems makes them seem more intractable than they might actually be
― Scampo di tutti i Scampi (ShariVari), Monday, December 6, 2021 8:39 AM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

I believe this is absolutely the case, alarmist media (mainstream or social) tend to overlook how well americans have it compared to the rest of the world. Any acknowledgement of that fact only gets you scorn from populists.

the original quoted tweet was not about income and that, among his other bad qualities, is why he was scorned and will continue to be scorned unless he shapes up

When it comes to many things outside of standards of living metrics, say stuff like quality of life and civil rights, US remains one of the best countries to live in. Not saying there isn’t room for improvement, there is obviously much to work on. But if the US is a dystopia, what is the DRC?

in terms of quality of life and civil rights, the US is certainly in the top four of the four countries i've lived in, it's true.

Ah, the old "well you could live in Ethiopia during the famine, quitcherbitchin"

this is so pointless to argue about. literally a 2 a.m. throwaway tweet.

haha i just read what megan mggargle was responding to. it's hard to understand what burnout is when you've never had a real job. it's not "having the hardest job," ffs

Ah, the old "well you could live in Ethiopia during the famine, quitcherbitchin"

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, December 9, 2021 5:38 PM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Not saying there isn’t room for improvement, there is obviously much to work on.

Mcardle obviously not worth responding to, the whole exchange mainly highlights goldfish-brain in media. It was less than five years ago that K-12 educators throughout the country engaged in mass labor action around the decade-long perpetuation of 2008 austerity policies. There’s also been a notable backlash from teachers against the neoliberal/charterization policy that both parties have embraced since the 90s, and the Democratic Party has attempted to distance itself from some of Obama’s trademark ed policies.

This is pretty relevant context! The idea that schoolworkers mysteriously started acting out because of the pandemic just shows media folks’ total inability to focus on anything other than the shiny object in front of them.

US rates considerably higher in terms of quality of life and civil rights in the imagination of both its population and (crucially) the world population than it does in reality, thinking ppl underrate it on those counts is prime evidence of living in a bubble.

Yes, the US is not ‘the greatest place on earth’ like some republicans will want you to believe. Yes, there’s a (relatively small) bunch of countries that offer better of qualify of life to its citizens. But the gap is so large with so many of the other countries that cries of misery or dystopia rings extremely out of touch with reality.

did you know that the united states has the largest prison population and that its police kill and abuse with impunity

responding to someone saying that the usa has many dystopian qualities by pointing out that it has a relatively high standard of living is not only a non sequitur its also you know uh possessing many of the qualities typically associated with sociopathy

its also as far as the political geniuses like matty go just not a good political argument, reminiscent of hillary gift shops america is already great hat, check out the country wrong track polling number if you dont belive me, also just check out the country lol

The definition of dystopia is that every aspect of society is catastrophically terrible, of course I understand it’s hyperbolic, the point made still sounds like first world privilege crying. I find it’s a description of the US that does not fit my experience with nations in which things are much closer to catastrophically terrible than the US, nor with the US itself.

anyone who cant see that the usa creates tremendous suffering for a vast number of people worldwide and at home and is currently in grave danger of getting much worse absolutely has their head up their ass or is benefiting from said suffering or some combination of the two

i mean why would people think this looks like dystopia when they have large clothes driers (on average)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/07/31/magazine/31onphoto1/31mag-31onphoto-t_CA0-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg

look at the vast selections of food available you whiners

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5c3e10b2f92c694343cc71b9/4:3/w_1424,h_1068,c_limit/Rosner-Fast-Food-Trump.jpg

Ah yes, police interrupting protests using violence, an uniquely american experience.

The last time I ate a quarter pounder was a dystopic experience.

you should be thankful to live here and be a rich blogger

https://i.redd.it/c6ft6k1tuli51.jpg

Ah yes, police interrupting protests using violence, an uniquely american experience.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:12 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

this argument is not quite as clever as you think, and does fwiw contradict your previous one

The definition of dystopia is that every aspect of society is catastrophically terrible, of course I understand it’s hyperbolic, the point made still sounds like first world privilege crying. I find it’s a description of the US that does not fit my experience with nations in which things are much closer to catastrophically terrible than the US, nor with the US itself.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 7:59 AM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

if you understand it then why are you arguing with no one here

pointing out the U.S.'s problems is not first world privilege ffs. NO ONE knows what the tweet was actually about but if it was about being #1 in school shootings or incarceration that would not be "privilege"

that definition of dystopia is such a lame attempt to not engage with what people are saying too lol

our already imperfect democracy is clearly eroding further to the point that we are in obvious danger of becoming a fully authoritarian state

shut up you baby put your clothes in the big expensive drier

I just find the notion insulting to all the people who live in conditions that are much much worse than what the average american get to live, and that happens to be the vast majority of the world. I just think the rethoric is a populist device that is detached from reality (things like quality of life and standards of living are measured, the US is doing very well).

xpost i mean at least a comment about the definition is responsive in a way that "well actually the income/quality of life (whatever that means) is higher than everywhere" is not, but that definition is also so extreme that it would like never be OK to say the word in this context

i'm pretty sure kate aronoff is aware of that and was frustrated about something at 2 a.m., i'm not sure why you haven't considered that

the people saying these things might actually care about the suffering of their fellow humans worldwide, rather than just using them for a dismissive rhetorical device, something to think about

because of course a huge issue with the usa is its responsible for a lot of that suffering

yes, it's dystopic

I don’t think she is the only one using that sort of doom/dystopia rethoric. I just agree with Yglesias that the left shouldn’t engage with that sort of thinking. Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

Anecdotally the ppl I know who come from the countries that are worst off in terms of living conditions would actually enthusiastically agree with the statement "the UK is a dystopia" because, being mostly undocumented migrants, they have experienced its dystopian elements more than myself or anyone on this thread. Pretty sure that'd be the same for the US.

how dare you use the bad word

https://i.imgur.com/u3hBxgk.png

just glad being ruled by sinister mega corporations is something that only happens in scifi

hey that looks like a useful word to describe many aspects of the american experience

The reason the US feels dystopian is because of the massive disparities between rich and poor and between racialized groups. Appealing to averages misses the point--what's infuriating and depressing about the place is that there is a ton of money sloshing around that could be used to help people (see the just passed defense bill) and that certain classes of people do enjoy civil rights while others do not. That America is not North Korea isn't particularly relevant when considering Black teenagers spending months or years in Rikers without a trial or immigrant detention or etc.

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

I would also say that dealing with the privatized health care system can indeed feel dystopian in a classic literary, Kafkaesque way

sorry bit of an xpost

Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:40 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jolly good ill just get on that then, oh the police seem to be hitting me now, but thats ok its normal no worries im sure well get to the bottom of this in no time

it does feel luxurious to be able to solve these domestic problems that i made all by myself

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

Absolutely, but in my experience unhapiness, fear and injustice are even higher in second and third world countries. Also, the fact that americans itt are mainly talking about problems happening americans society atm and not the specific problems plaguing other nations, as if the barometer was their own culture/nation/society is telling.

We have done a magnificent job in the last century inflicting problems on other nations.