On Sinema at the Sinema: October 2021 US Politics thread

lol thinking that anyone voted for the hypothetical 3.5 trillion or whatever BBB plan. They voted to get rid of Trump.

can i get a sticker and a congrats as well

My apologies, Moodles.

can i get a sticker and a congrats as well

― Karl Malone, Thursday, October 28, 2021 2:48 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't know if it means much but you get the VHS's favorite poster sticker.

that does mean a lot! i will never take this sticker off of its backing :)

I'm not upset or anything, but I think this ongoing assumption that most of the people on there buy into the myth of Joe Biden vs simply just voting for the marginally better viable option is super played out

*on here

i want to say "i can't think of a single person here who is a joe biden fan", but i'm sure there's some old post where someone really makes the case for him. but yeah, it is definitely very played out

'I told you the largest stimulus bill in US history would face hurdles and that Joe Biden would compromise on some core elements of it!'

We all know Trump really won Pennsylvania anyway

I'm not upset or anything, but I think this ongoing assumption that most of the people on there buy into the myth of Joe Biden vs simply just voting for the marginally better viable option is super played out

― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Thursday, October 28, 2021 2:01 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

And it's completely disproven by simply reading the threads leading up to his nomination and election. The consensus seemed to hover somewhere around '....Really? This guy? Christ, if I have to.'

Really? This guy? Christ, if I have to.'

perm pol thread title imo

I'm not upset or anything, but I think this ongoing assumption that most of the people on there buy into the myth of Joe Biden vs simply just voting for the marginally better viable option is super played out

Some do, some don't. Some prefer ensuring that everyone knows they were prepared for disappointment and expected nothing better - the "better things can't happen" tweet by way of 2004 Pitchfork.

Thing is - whatever you think of Joe Biden or expected of Joe Biden, it's still irrelevant at the disappointment one might feel in a single-party government accomplishing little (unless you count victimizing refugees) and with so little urgency. As President, party leader, etc., Joe Biden gets to eat that shit, particularly when a question is asked about his responsibility or what he could have done.

If you want to skip past thoughts on Joe Biden and Democrats in general, from a purely strategic view of politics a failure to confront multiple looming disasters (climate, inequality, political) is some pretty bad juju.

Up until South Carolina, then Super Tuesday, I can't recall a single ilxor favoring Biden. Not one. After those primaries, it rapidly became apparent that Biden would be the nominee, so people here began to discuss the ramifications of that fact, including any possible positives that could be gleaned from the wreckage. These were usually framed as a hope or a possibility rather than as praise for Biden's excellence.

But it suits some ilxors to rewrite the past to fit their needs, one of which is to make others be on the wrong side of their argument in ways they never were.

Some prefer ensuring that everyone knows they were prepared for disappointment and expected nothing better

I looked this up. It's called "projection."

None of us here are running for office, so "ensure" is just a nutrition shake to me.

i agree that joe biden is going to eat shit. the fact that the entire messageboard thinks biden isn't inspiring or praiseworthy (or, almost everyone who posts on this thread at least) is a big problem for him, and for democrats, and by extension, this country in 2022 and 2024, as milo sometimes mentions.

the people that are pointing forward to the effort to cheerlead what's going to pass in the bill (if it passes) are providing hope, and i appreciate that. and it's correct that if democrats were going to do well in 2022, or at least not terribly, they would need to be hyping up this legislation big time and selling everyone on what's in it and who will benefit. however, the fact that it's the last minute before it's going to get passed (if it passes), and there's still a general confusion about what's in it, which big programs got completely removed and which passed manchin's litmus test, which is also a pandora's box. consider that the common parlance of this bill is "the infrastructure...budget...social spending bill?", and that the acronym BIF is commonly deployed in writing about it.

the democrats are clearly not thinking of how to sell this bill once it passes (if it passes). that's not on manchin/sinema, that's on democrats and the white house. on that point, i agree with shitting on biden and the democrats.

however, that's a communications/PR issue and something democrats haven't been good at since...before i was alive, maybe. 2008. obama 2008 was good at selling shit. but the problem of 2021 is still that the vast majority of democrats agree on the spending bill, at the 3.5T level, even, but they have to kowtow to manchin/sinema because it's 50-50. ie, the big obvious thing everyone repeats over and over

i'm probably projecting, too, but i think pretty much everyone would agree on most of that.

does anyone here think biden/democrats are doing a great job "selling" what's in the bill, or that they'll do a good job over the next year?

does anyone here think that the reality of the senate, ie, 50-50 split, (after the double miracle of Georgia, even), manchin/sinema buy-in on everything is not a huge thing that affects everything else, and at least makes biden/democrats' job _exceedingly complicated_ than it would be with a 55-45 margin, or 2008 obama's 60-40 margin?

it not everyone agrees, then it sounds like an interesting thing to talk about.

but i get real the fuck annoyed with this thread when it feels like i'm on a nature walk and someone keeps going "TREE!" every time we pass a fucking tree

Depends on how many Senators you think Manchin plays fall guy for. Coons, Warner, Tester, etc.. Obama's 60-40 margin didn't (make much of an effort to) stop Lieberman from kneecapping Obamacare.

To be fair Karl to the Democrats they are fighting a massive disinformation campaign too. The bar is so low that Biden is sometimes labeled 'socialist' by some.

Joe Biden gets to eat shit, he knows it, that's the contract a politician signs when he gets elected, it remains healthy to criticize. What is just unessential is to lament 'what could have been done' as if the dude ever had the power to bring forth The Utopia Milo Desires. I'd be interested in hearing political debates on Biden's methods, get into the nitty gritty of it, or discussing the economic implications of the bill, and some posters do that! But this is not it, this is just telling us we are rubes for ever thinking one of the largest spending bill in US history is positive. If we are so wrong and stupid, at least educates us, 'what he could have' just sounds like there is no expertise.

Biden was probably the guy I least wanted in that group (next to Bloomberg, obv) but I admit I felt a little bit of relief when he won knowing that he probably had the best shot of winning in the general

I didn't raise the question of whether or not to be "mad at" Biden or what he could have done.

what he could have done.

Biden’s pitch was that he was uniquely qualified to wrangle Congress, it was only months ago that ILXors were still talking about his skill at working them behind the scenes.

Beyond that, he wasted most of the year not aggressively asserting his authority/stature/popularity (on good policy, he exerted that authority all over Haitian refugees) - starting with President Senate Parliamentarian ensuring the minimum wage stagnates for another decade - because he bought into his own hype as President Deals.

The round of capitulations could have taken place in April, which would have at least made it possible for Nov. 22 voters to feel some tiny effects of the Biden admin.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 28, 2021 11:16 AM

but i get real the fuck annoyed with this thread when it feels like i'm on a nature walk and someone keeps going "TREE!" every time we pass a fucking tree

― Karl Malone

lol

he didn't raise the question, just helpfully pointing out how everyone else doesn't know shit about shit

i just realized that the 1.75T deal today is exactly half of the original 3.5T Sanders plan. what a coincidence, the number they decided on was exactly half.

Depends on how many Senators you think Manchin plays fall guy for. Coons, Warner, Tester, etc.. Obama's 60-40 margin didn't (make much of an effort to) stop Lieberman from kneecapping Obamacare.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 28, 2021 2:41 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yea I think a lot of people in the media are missing this, even if you replaced those two with Bernie clones I still don't think $3.5t passes. ultimately the solution is to start electing younger people to Congress who are actually on board with unfucking a system that is hopelessly rigged in favor of rich conservatives

he didn't raise the question, just helpfully pointing out how everyone else doesn't know shit about shit

The sheer audacity to quote and respond to another post.

worst part about an internet forum, imo

ultimately the solution is to start electing younger people to Congress who are actually on board with unfucking a system that is hopelessly rigged in favor of rich conservatives

― frogbs, Thursday, October 28, 2021 12:56 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Good luck with that— a side effect of the Dems being so feckless in the face of literal climate devastation and fascist uprising is that a lot of young people with good politics have just given up hope.

If they hadn't already.

if anything the fecklessness of these old, mostly white elephants has inspired our local twentysomethings

does anyone here think biden/democrats are doing a great job "selling" what's in the bill, or that they'll do a good job over the next year?

if biden cared about this stuff he would have been on tv as often as he could, hammering home what this bill would do for the american people, and calling out sinema and manchin for blocking it.

bernie is old but he would have done that.

i agree with frogbs and the other conspiracy theorists that the moderate dems didn't really want that bill, they just wanted to look like they did. sinema and manchin, in that narrative, are just the scapegoats.

in that scenario, what is the benefit for the "moderate dems" (milo's "Coons, Warner, Tester, etc..")

their constituency are democratic voters who want paid family leave etc. this way they don't need to anger them.

if biden cared about this stuff he would have been on tv as often as he could, hammering home what this bill would do for the american people, and calling out sinema and manchin for blocking it.

― treeship

what?

I absolutely don't believe it's just Sinema and Manchin, but it's hard to discern just how many others are tanking this shit

thus inspiring the millions of West Virginian and Arizonan libs to visit Sinemanchin with pitchforks to eat their brains

if biden cared about paid family leave, lower prescription drug prices, and other provisions that have been cut in the new spending bill, he would have advocated for them more forecefully, taking the case directly to the american people. instead he negotiated them away.

xp

their constituency are democratic voters who want paid family leave etc. this way they don't need to anger them.

― treeship., Thursday, October 28, 2021 3:16 PM

so they get to be part of the 96% or so of senate/house that is behind the $3.5T plan, which pleases their democratic constituents, but they also benefit because the bill gets cut down to 1.75T, and they like that because they are fiscal conservatives at heart?

sorry if i'm misunderstanding

yes

they appease their voters and also their corporate donors.

most likely there are other senators that want to eviscerate this bill as much as possible to please their donor base but would rather not be the face of that because they still want people to vote for them. Manchin can get away with this because his voters lean more conservative, Sinema thinks she can get away with this because it makes her look like a "maverick" but she's problem miscalculating. Other senators know they cannot get away with it.

ugh, she's *probably miscalculating

he would have advocated for them more forecefully, taking the case directly to the american people

who would do what with it?

it might not have done anything. could have shamed sinema into falling in line.