Mostly Apolitical Thread for Discussing/Venting our Rational/Irrational COVID-19 Fears and Experiences in 2020

the idea to open schools wasn't bad, but the moment governors started banning mask mandates, telling parents they didn't have to quarantine their exposed kid, and people at school board meetings began threatening public officials, and outbreaks hit the heights that Florida and Texas had - it changed the game a bit.

transmission in school seems to be higher than it was last year because we were only dealing with the ancestral strain.

I don't want to speak for teachers or parents, and I understand closing schools would lead to a lot of working parents who are no longer wfh having to find emergency arrangements, which I know is something we can't neglect. but I'd feel a fuck-ton of a lot better if FL schools weren't open right now.

The belief that the delta surge means almost everyone will end up getting infected with covid is just man alive's latest fixation. It could be true. It could be wrong. But it's pure prognostication, based half on extrapolation from the skimpy but frightening fact that we have to work with atm and half based on the emotional 'truth' those facts have engendered. iow, man alive is guessing a future that sounds personally convincing, like all the rest of us.

― it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Wednesday, August 18, 2021 11:02 PM bookmarkflaglink

the problem isn't so much the statement "everybody is going to get COVID" (caek said something similar upthread, more that he figured he'd get it eventually), it's what it is used to then justify.

if you say "everybody is going to get COVID, so let's just remove the restrictions, stop vaxxing, roam around mask free and just go about our lives like it's 2019", fuck right off. the healthcare industry is in crisis with how fast hospitals are filling up. this sounds like a strawman but I literally hear a variant of this every day.

if you say "everybody is going to get COVID, and the outcome we are trying to prevent is serious disease or death (and possibly long COVID), we should change our strategy to be more of harm prevention rather than zero COVID", well...actually experts believe that, so, that's not a disagreeable position. Because it still involves things like mask mandates, capacity limits, vaccine mandates, fixing filtration in public places, etc.

we will get to a point where COVID just hangs around with us like more of an annoying cold than an actual deadly virus, but we're nowhere near that right now.

I'm torn. We return to all-hands-on-deck full-time face-to-face teaching at my university in DeSantisland, and, jitters notwithstanding, I'm looking forward to it despite my not knowing who's jabbed and who will choose to wear a mask despite our coaxing. It would fucking suck for my mental health if I had to go remote again.

now to my other pet peeve - right now, very prominent experts are on opposing sides of the booster debate, and are both very loud and confident about it.

on the pro-booster side appear to be doctors like Bob Wachter, Eric Topol, and Peter Hotez. I wouldn't call their support necessarily "aggressive booster support", but all have acknowledged that data supports immunity waning after 6 months (or sooner), and that boosters are something they support.

But there is a loud faction on the other side that says this is premature and that the data doesn't support it. People like Dr Angela Rasmussen, Dr Monica Gandhi, Dr Gavin Yamey, Natalie Dean (epidemiologist/stats modeler) - who believe the current data is insufficient to suggest there'd be a benefit, and that it's irresponsible to do it rather than either getting more first shots in arms here stateside, or globally.

I've been sympathetic to the second side so far, but it does really obfuscate things for us laypeople. Scientists, doctors et al aren't a monolith, no, and this is a novel virus that we still don't know a lot about, so I don't expect every professional to have a unified front, but....it would be nice if there could be some kind of national or even global consortium that actually could meet behind closed doors and try to calibrate on some kind of loose 'consensus' or at least disagree in a way that seemed less like them painting you as an immoral vaccine grubber if you get a booster. I'm sure decision-making like that doesn't make some people anxious, but there are people who will actually stress over doing the right thing and be afraid to commit to a decision that harms somebody. I'm one of those people, though fortunately for me, it's irrelevant for *me* here.

course I brought this concern up to a rando Dr on twitter yesterday who was anti-booster and they seemed insulted that I didn't just gravitate towards their opinion and eschew the other side.

xpost oh I don't blame you. remote learning fucking blows.

caek, any thoughts on whether some of the heavily hit southern states are truly plateauing/flattening now, especially Florida? FL seemed to be doing so with cases and hospitalizations, though I know cases will decline long before hospitalizations do, and we still continue to set daily records for # of people hospitalized.

side note, I have taken a BinaxNOW test 5 times in the past two weeks. all negs.

remote learning fucking blows

maybe now, after the firsthand experience of the past 18 months, we'll stop hearing claims that remote learning is the future of education. tbf, these claims were mostly made by 'experts' hired by companies that facilitate remote learning and by people who don't like paying taxes to fund public education.

i'm not familiar enough with the weirdness in florida's reporting to say if there's a plateau, but https://covidactnow.org/share/44602/?redirectTo=%2Fus%2Fflorida-fl%2Fexplore%2F44602 doesn't look like one to me.

xp, you'd think so, but the guy who won the mayoral election in NYC said this during the campaign https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/eric-adams-criticized-for-suggesting-one-nyc-teacher-can-teach-300-to-400-students-with-remote-learning/ar-AAKYNyc

the problem isn't so much the statement "everybody is going to get COVID" (caek said something similar upthread, more that he figured he'd get it eventually), it's what it is used to then justify.

if you say "everybody is going to get COVID, so let's just remove the restrictions, stop vaxxing, roam around mask free and just go about our lives like it's 2019", fuck right off. the healthcare industry is in crisis with how fast hospitals are filling up. this sounds like a strawman but I literally hear a variant of this every day.

if you say "everybody is going to get COVID, and the outcome we are trying to prevent is serious disease or death (and possibly long COVID), we should change our strategy to be more of harm prevention rather than zero COVID", well...actually experts believe that, so, that's not a disagreeable position. Because it still involves things like mask mandates, capacity limits, vaccine mandates, fixing filtration in public places, etc.

we will get to a point where COVID just hangs around with us like more of an annoying cold than an actual deadly virus, but we're nowhere near that right now.

― there's too much fucking shit on me (Neanderthal), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:01 (fifty-four minutes ago) link

I agree with this though, at least in large part. I certainly don't think we should "stop vaxxing" (!), or go 100% back to 2019, and I'm not against masks at this point (although I don't think we should be under illusions about how much they will prevent spread, especially among kids who are unlikely to be wearing a well-fitting KN95 or better all day). It's more that I think there is going to have to be an endpoint where we accept the grim truth that we aren't getting to 90% vaccination ever, or at least for a very long time, and therefore we aren't going to reach herd immunity except by a lot more people getting the virus. I guess I don't know exactly what that means in reality, but I feel like we are in a holding pattern where we are still assuming we are just going to reach a point soon where spread is and stays low, and I increasingly don't think that is going to happen.

I mean, fixing ventilation is a good idea everywhere regardless (although not without costs, including environmental costs, because increasing air filtration past a certain point restricts airflow and thus requires more powerful HVAC units)> Mask mandates -- ok, but are we grappling with the fact that maybe we just continue to wear masks indoors everywhere for the next year? Two years? Longer? Same with capacity limits - are we just going to, e.g., put large weddings, concerts, conventions, large indoor family events, etc. on hold for the foreseeable future? Are we going to make in person school impossible in some urban areas for another year or even longer? I'm all for vaccine mandates fwiw.

I guess what I'm saying (maybe?) is that, if we are implementing an NPI, and it's not just a temporary "surge" type NPI (e.g. hospitals are over capacity and we just have to get them back down to normal), then we should really be weighing the possibility that it would remain in place for the very long term and whether the costs are worth whatever short-term reduction in spread we get.

well
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/19/well/live/covid-plastic-barriers.html

I never honestly had any belief that those were anything but props for COVID theater.

I think these plexiglass barriers were a good idea last year when we thought expelled particles were a major factor, honestly haven't really seen them in a long time and didn't know they were still a thing

They're everywhere and people who I would definitely expect to know better still seem to value them. See also those fucking plastic face shields that don't do anything to filter the air you're breathing.

Like, "Clear barriers have sprung up at restaurants, nail salons and school classrooms" is a weird subhed for an August 2021 article about a practice that was more widespread a year ago than now -- why not "Clear barriers still remain at many restaurants, nail salons and school classrooms"

It has definitely been at least a year since I saw anyone wearing a plastic face shield -- masks, on the other hand, both blue paper + KN95-style, remain common

See also the plastic chin mask/shields that are very popular on Japanese TV

there is going to have to be an endpoint where we accept the grim truth that we aren't getting to 90% vaccination ever

In the USA there are plenty of points of leverage to require people to get vaccinated that have not yet been fully exploited. And the strategies I'm thinking of fall short of using the full power of the government to compel compliance, a power has been tested in the courts and is undeniably within its legal remit, if the government chose to do so.

It has definitely been at least a year since I saw anyone wearing a plastic face shield -- masks, on the other hand, both blue paper + KN95-style, remain common

― Guayaquil (eephus!)

lol my dentist wears them and a surgical mask but he did pre-COVID.

tell it to me straight, once you do get vaccinated how much worse is this than the seasonal flu?

it provokes uncontrollable flatulence for one.

I wear a Knight's Mask

tell it to me straight, once you do get vaccinated how much worse is this than the seasonal flu?

― frogbs, Thursday, August 19, 2021 3:10 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've heard of mild cases but admittedly the article above said that several vaccinated teachers got "the sickest they've ever been" although not requiring hospitalization.

nobody can really standardize it. some breakthrough friends were miserable. some were just annoyed with cold symptoms. some said "wow this was brutal and I can't believe it might have been worse if I hadn't been vaxxed".

so like Alfred suggests, anything from rancid farts to basically feeling like you're paralyzed

but so paralyzed you can't crawl away from the blast zone of your rancid farts? please tell me so i'm prepared

lol my dentist wears them and a surgical mask but he did pre-COVID.

I see people wearing the plastic barrier masks on the subway every day.

A friend of mine said she heard a health reporter say the goal line is when we have both a child vaccine wildly available and an effective antiviral treatment. Which I guess makes sense, but are we guaranteed to ever get one? Has there been promising news about such treatments?

The goal line is when everyone in the world gets access to both those things.

That’s why the booster talk is so galling. There’s a whole planet that hasn’t got close to a single dose yet.

I mean the "goal line" in the sense of the point at which we in our respective countries mostly go back to "normal," not the ethical goal line. I don't think the UK or US would maintain capacity restrictions based on vaccination rates or antiviral availability in India

It doesn’t really work like that, now the disease is endemic. Whilst there are people without effective vaccines and treatments (or people refusing them) we are at higher risk of variants that take us all back to square one, wherever we are.

Normal for me is entering a 201st day of lockdown where I can be fined $5000 for travelling more than 5km, because a new variant broke through our (shoddily unimproved defences). Normal for me is not having the choice to see my family in person for 2 years or more.

A different normal involves lowering the risk globally, not just in the US or the UK.

I don't believe that normal is sustainable economically, emotionally, or otherwise.

Not for the length of time it would take to get the entire world to even 70% vaccination, let alone 80 or 90%.

Just go do whatever it is you want to do and stop embarrassing yourself online about it

:( :( stirmonster

ok, but are we grappling with the fact that maybe we just continue to wear masks indoors everywhere for the next year?

what grappling?

yeah kinda used to it by now tbh

stirmonster i'm pretty sure darraghmac was not responding to you but wryly asking if we'd not, collectively, as a species, already taken care of this problem the way you might take care of a pallet of lumber that needs moving from one side of the warehouse to the other

Sorry i misser that

Stirmonster i hopped into the thread with an ilx meme about circularly hopeless discussions and hadn't read yr post, id hoped that my xp after would have made it clear that id subsequently noted yr bad news and hoped the best for you!

ok. i get it. sorry - was particularly out of it when you posted. i think i am perhaps on the mend but have to say it is really, really unpleasant and i am very glad i got super fit over the last year. i can imagine masking for the rest of my days!

thought i'd also post this as it definitely highlights the power of masks and ventilation.

on tuesday, when i was probably unknowingly at my most infectious i spent an hour with my personal trainer. we were in very, very close proximity pretty much the entire time. he wore a mask and we had a door open. he tested negative. on the way out i chatted face to face with his colleague for a little over ten minutes. he has tested positive.

masks and ventilation!!

WATCH: “That was in no way a threat.” 🙄

Rod Lunn, the childless man who threatened a dad at the WILCO board meeting, attempts to defend his actions 🤐 says the dad almost hit a kid 🤥 and claims he’s received “powder” in the mail👌🏻

FULL WSMV STORY: https://t.co/E28ctj695r pic.twitter.com/KMyCBq37nn

— The Tennessee Holler (@TheTNHoller) August 20, 2021

that was just his monthly coke shipment

the thing that drives me nuts about this booster thing is again, Walensky's messaging. she believes the booster might make people less likely to transmit the virus if they get infected. epidemiologists are tut-tutting and saying "does...does the data actually show that?".

but I got the impression boosters were more to ensure protection against severe disease doesn't wane, and possibly to prevent some symptomatic transmission, and I feel like her messaging is going to make people think after they get a third shot, they're invincible again.

Misread that as "invisible" and thought I had another awesome super power to look forward to.

they will be compared to the millions and millions of people who haven’t even had their first shot yet!

i know a lot of you guys are bored of this but crossing borders is going to be unbelievably difficult until the world gets more vaccinated, but EVEN SO spreading events are going to keep happening until the world gets more vaccinated so maybe we should think about a better way to, like, get the world more vaccinated instead of boosting the already pretty great immunity of the wealthiest people on earth

that is the general gist of the booster naysayers. and honestly the booster supporters don't seem to be doing as good a job making their case right now. only about 30% of the globe is vaxxed, but even THAT stat is misleading because the biggest countries/continents are the majority of that 30%. lots of countries in single digits.

people are already pretending to be immunocompromised and getting thirds.

I only got my third cos of how long ago I had my second and being in a house with olds (sorry mom and dad but u are), and being elderly, I see a case for them getting a third, but idk that my middle-aged non-immunocomp friends are necessarily going to need them.

This might be a weird personal thing, but I really, really like wearing a mask when I go to Target or the supermarket or gas station etc.

Feels really liberating in some way to be anonymous

I have a black KN95 and it makes me look like Bane so I like it too.

a few times the cashier screamed and opened the register and ran away.

made 10k this week

I was complimented on my mask (which has a big Baphomet pentagram on it) by a teenaged grocery clerk the other week. And some other dude said "Hail Satan" to me at the bagel shop.

I like wearing a mask. I hate wearing my mask for prolonged periods of time.

My first cloth mask (sigh ...) had sugar skulls on it, and that used to get a lot of compliments. The other day I told my kids I was surprised that there have been no trendy masks, and they looked at me like I was stupid (I mean ... ) before telling me the brand and material and colors that carry the most cachet.