Katrina's aftermath

>Nagin, whose pre-hurricane evacuation order got most of his city of a half a million out of harm's way, estimated 50,000 to 100,000 people remained, and said that 14,000 to 15,000 a day could be evacuated in ensuing convoys.

"We have to," Nagin said. "It's not living conditions."

Minor differences between 300-400K and 50-100K. You should update your sources. <

That's because you're talking about Orleans Parish and I'm talking about Metro New Orleans. You're right...and so am I.

That said, it seems like basically the same argument whether it's 100,000 out of 500,000 or 300,000 out of 1.3 million.

I'd just, you know, prefer not to be called a moron or ghoul.

-- kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (jdsalmo...), September 1st, 2005.

I'd like to earmark my donation for people who 'find' food as opposed to people who 'loot' it. And also, I only want to help people who help themselves, and not those good-for-nothings who stayed in the city.

er, how is having a checkbox right there on the website saying "click here if you want your donation to go to hurricane relief" being persnickety?

you're not reporting, you're SPECULATING in a very insensitive manner on why people stayed. it's not fucking helping. all it's doing is making you look like a massive douchebag who hates poor people. get one fucking clue already.

xpost if you don't want to be a called a moron or a ghoul, the easiest way not to is to NOT BE ONE.

my turn to get into baseless projecting and ask, then, if we really think that of a total of 450K people potentially 1/4 of them didn't leave? I'd have to guess she's talking about everyone in the area...

That said, it seems like basically the same argument whether it's 100,000 out of 500,000 or 300,000 out of 1.3 million.

If you mean that it's a shitload of people or are in trouble, then yes. But moving 100K people v. moving 400K people... I'll take 100K

it's ok, just grow out of it

No idea. Remember, these organizations not only have to fund themselves to pay their employees and make various materials, but are typically all over the globe dealing with various disasters. If you'd like to dedicate your money in the direction of this disaster in particular, its asked that you do so. Its basically reactionary thinking that a lot of people now put forth following the outburst of anger at the Red Cross not spending all the money given immediately post 9/11 in NY and Washington.

There are risks of pockets of shortages in various parts of the country," said Edward L. Morse, an executive adviser at Hetco, a New York-based oil trading company. "There should be no gasoline lines in New York and New England, or California, but inland markets, like parts of Illinois, Tennessee, Kentucky or Missouri, Memphis and Atlanta, are vulnerable."

In North Carolina, Gov. Mike Easley said the state had only one week of gasoline supplies and some stations were already running out of fuel. "We are not out of gas, but we are running low," Mr. Easley said.

Sims Floyd Jr., the executive director of the South Carolina Petroleum Marketers Association, said the worst was yet to come. "We're facing a severe supply shortage very soon."

[...]No active refiners are in a position to increase their production to make up for the lost output from storm-damaged refineries.

"It doesn't matter that the government opens the strategic reserves because there is very little slack in the refining business," said Craig Pennington, the director of the global energy group at Schroders in London.

[...] Coast Guard crews reported that up to 20 rigs and platforms had either sunk or were adrift, Larry Chambers, a public information officer, said. At least one gas rig has caught fire.

The Mars platform of Royal Dutch Shell - which alone accounts for 15 percent of the gulf's oil production - is "severely damaged," the Coast Guard said in a release.

[...]"I hate to be an alarmist, but we're in a situation without much precedent," said David Pursell, a principal with Pickering Energy Partners in Houston. "With the gasoline market as tight as it is, people complain about $3 gas but they'll put $5 gas in their car if they suddenly think it's not available."

actually, i think Cas was referring to the select box on the Red Cross's donate page:

* Select ONE of the following:
Hurricane 2005 Relief
Nat'l Disaster Relief Fund
...
...
Measles Initiative

also, Redcross.org is runnin' REAL slow right now. LORD, do i hope this is from all the donating activity.

BILL QUIGLEY: This is sort of the nightmare scenario that everybody was really
worried about, but the problem for New Orleans is that everybody who had their
health, had money and had a car, they left. Okay, so we have probably 100,000
people trapped in the city right now, maybe 50,000 or 60,000 people in the
Superdome who are there without electricity, without flushing toilets, without
food, without water. And they are people who had to walk over there or take a
bus, because they didn't have a car to get out. There are people in nursing
homes, there's people in these little hospitals all over the place.
And then there's still -- we can see when you're looking out the window at
night, you can see flashlights in the water where people are walking around
out in the neighborhoods completely dark. You see a flashlight where
somebody's walking down the water. As you said, tomorrow night, you are not
going to see those flashlights because tomorrow night, they expect that we're
going to have nine to 15 feet of water. So those people that are walking out
there with flashlights, they're not going to be there.

And the hospitals are full. The hospitals are turning people away, because
they don't have enough food and water to be able to take care of the people
who are in the hospitals. So, the boatload of people that came apparently to
the hospital this morning or this afternoon, a father, a mother and two little
kids came in a boat, and the people at the hospital turned them away, sent
them away, because they didn't have room for them.

Another 20 people walked up to the parking lot -- parking garage. They had
been in the Holiday Inn downtown. That Holiday Inn lost electricity, lost
everything. So those people just left, and they have been wandering around the
city looking for a place to stay, and the security guards had to turn them
away. They sent them back into the flood waters because they didn't have
enough food or water or that to even be able to take care of necessarily the
people that are here.

So who's left behind in New Orleans right now, you are talking about tens of
thousands of people who are left behind, and those are the sickest, the
oldest, poorest, the youngest, the people with disabilities and the like, and
the plan was that everybody should leave. Well, you can't leave if you're in a
hospital. You can't leave if you're a nurse. You can't leave if you are a
patient. You can't leave if you're in a nursing home. You can't leave if you
don't have a car. All of these things. They didn't have - there wass no plan
for that.

And so, we are talking about somewhere in the neighborhood, I think, of
100,000 people probably in the metropolitan New Orleans area that are still
here. And the suggestions from local officials are, you know, in the suburban
parish next to us, they announced on the radio -- we have one radio station,
have no TV, have no cell phones. Nothing. The only calls we are able to get
are the calls that come in. And the suggestion was that people should take a
boat over toward the interstate, and then they would pick them up there. But,
you know, these people don't have a car, people who live in an apartment with
their mother, you know, people who are sick. That's why they couldn't leave.
They don't have cars. They certainly don't have boats. And so, there's a huge
humanitarian crisis going on here right now.

AMY GOODMAN: Bill Quigley, I wanted to ask -- this is a bit of an odd
question. You're a law professor. We usually talk to you about the crisis
that's going on in Haiti, where you have been a number of times and represent,
among others, Father Jean-Juste, who is in prison there. How does what you are
seeing in New Orleans right now, how does it compare to Haiti?

BILL QUIGLEY: Well, you know, I had always hoped that Haiti would become more
like New Orleans, but what's happened is New Orleans has become more like
Haiti here recently. You know, we don't have power. We don't have
transportation. At this point, I think, at least the people in the hospital
have some fresh water, but they're telling people you can't drink the water
out of the taps. So there's people wandering around the city without water,
without transportation, without medical care. So in many senses, we have about
a million people in the New Orleans area who are experiencing, you know, what
Haiti it like.

AMY GOODMAN: Have you seen any National Guard?

BILL QUIGLEY: There are apparently some National Guard who are on the roof,
who are helping with the helicopters. We have seen one or two here or there.
There's been reports that there's thousands of them that are coming in, but
again, I don't know how they would get in. People are not able to - you know,
the communication system is so bad that for a large part of the day, the
mayor, the chief of police, the governor and those people couldn't call the
one working radio station. And so they had to walk into the radio station to
be able to talk to the people who are out here trying to figure out what's
going on. So it is really a disaster, and the people who aren't in New
Orleans, I know, are dying to get back to their houses. But the people who are
in New Orleans are, in all honesty, dying, and there could be a lot more
casualties unless there's a lot of help real fast.

AMY GOODMAN: Bill Quigley is a law professor at Loyola University. He was
speaking to us from the hospital he is staying at, Tenant Memorial Hospital in
New Orleans, where his wife Debbie is an oncology nurse. After we spoke to him
early this morning, the electricity, backup electricity, went out at the
hospital.

i know not everything has gone smoothly, but uh extenuating circumstances etc. and it's getting on track now.

If that's the way you want to interpret my opinion, fine. I'm obviously not going to get you to change your mind, even though I've tried my best to explain what exactly my position is (which has obviously been completely misinterpreted by everyone). I can't expect anymore.

(edit: Nagin has done a pretty fine job. Perhaps he could have called for Martial Law earlier, but there was almost certainly too much rescue work to have been done)
>xpost if you don't want to be a called a moron or a ghoul, the easiest way not to is to NOT BE ONE.<

I'm a news junkie like a lot of people reading this thread. Again, if you want to call me a ghoul, that's fine. Makes me no different than the millions of Americans who flip out and follow what happens in Iraq or the Sudan or in Southeast Asia closely without any family ties or interest other than that of watching the unfolding of major world events. Maybe that's good, and maybe that's bad. I don't know nor pretend to.

i know. i was referring to the same thing.

* Select ONE of the following:
Hurricane 2005 Relief
Nat'l Disaster Relief Fund
...
...
Measles Initiative

nothing's stopping anyone from making multiple donations.

classic

ok

Almost everyone carried a plastic bag or bundled bedspread holding the few possessions they had left after Hurricane Katrina decimated their city. Some hobbled on walkers, canes and crutches; others inched forward on wheelchairs. Women led children and carried babies.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.laeg11709010048.hurricane_katrina_laeg117.jpg?x=380&y=271&sig=SIuRzlnYH47ZYl2yjiSk2g--

When did I say they were all "stupid"? There's a lot of people I feel bad for, yeah. Even the people who stayed behind who chose to. I don't even know how it got to this point, honestly. Last I remember, I was saying that the reaction to a nuclear event would be different than it was to the hurricane, and somehow its mutated into that I'm an evil ghoul who hates poor blacks.

Look, let's just ignore this, and go back to the news at hand, okay? Right now, its pretty quiet anyhow on all fronts. So let's all hope that order is restored in the city soon, the levies are filled, and people can continue to be evacuated, okay? Goddamn.

oh yeah. y'know, i never thought of that. Seriously.

i think to myself, "ok, i need to donate X amount of money" then i get there and i see the exclusive-or setup of the select box. i think "hmm, guess i can only send funds to one cause then. oh well." and i select the one, enter in the full X amt, and that's that.

It never occurs to me that "hey, maybe i should divvy it up" with x/2 going to cause A this time, then go thru another entire card-info entry for the other x/2 going to cause B. of course, my thought processes are a bit particular to myself, so perhaps the other way is obvious to everybody else.

it must have smelled pretty horrid with all the backed-up toilets and tens of thousands of sweaty people who hadn't showered in days.

(aside: did i just hear on cnn that women were RAPED inside the superdome? i'd like to see someone try to justify that as "survival"! on second thought, take it to the horny thread.)

oh, right, you only said:

Probably a good percentage were though. Probably near half.

sorry for not being clear.

Forgive me if I'm less than excited by this thought.

Probably a good percentage were though. Probably near half.

sorry for not being clear. <

You equate staying with the choice to leave with being stupid, and therefore believe my opinion that perhaps half of the people in New Orleans stayed by choice to be that I believe they are stupid. You're transposing your beliefs on me, obviously, because I've never claimed that the people who stayed were dumb, idiots, stupid, et al. They did what is expected of people in a place about to be hit by a storm. I don't blame them for being conditioned to do so.

All that aside, it is more important that you give money than that you worry about the ins and out of how you're giving money.

I don't doubt that you have either, were you to claim so. I'm just passing on information that people may be interested in.

the red cross is a class act. i'd have my doubts about how a lesser-known or less-reputable charity would handle my money, but if i give to the red cross i know that somehow it will reach the people that need it.

">so all who remained in New Orleans were stupid.<
That's a fantastic strawman to come up with and throw at me.

Of course not. Probably a good percentage were though. Probably near half. I'm not stupid. I saw the people lining up into the Superdome just like everyone else."

...

Of course not. Probably a good percentage were though. Probably near half. I'm not stupid. I saw the people lining up into the Superdome just like everyone else."

I called it a strawman for a reason, fever. I never said "so all who remained in New Orleans were stupid.". Nor would I. That wasn't the intention of what I was posting, believe it or not.

is there any other way to parse this?

Well, yeah, if you want to completely remove the context in which I said this, sure. Like I said before, the only man to equate it with stupidity at any time was hstencil, and hey, whatever. He's probably under some duress right now and if so, I probably was a conduit for him to get out some of his emotion tonight. I can't get that heated over it. Its basically like being thrown a "How often do you beat your kids/wife?" type question.

i think "does your mom know you're gay?" is the chestnut you're actually looking for here.

anyhow, you don't allow that anything you've said on this thread is in any way insensitive? really?

(I know Adam's posted... is there anyone else on the bitch from NO?)

yeah, the CNN chick did the "toxic gumbo" phrase

i think "does your mom know you're gay?" is the chestnut you're actually looking for here.<

I can go with the latter. In either case, I certainly didn't make that an intended effort, and I think that's prety obvious.

>anyhow, you don't allow that anything you've said on this thread is in any way insensitive? really?<

I thought about this for a moment. I suppose it perhaps is to some people. I accept that fact. After all, I can't expect to know what are the triggers for all people. By the same token, I'm as inquisitive and yearning for knowledge as anyone else. Matter of fact, my entrance into that argument was merely a reply to a previous poster. Perhaps I was insensitve. For that I apologize to anyone was offended, but I only do so to a point. Frankly, a lot of the shots I've taken are from people that have hardly taken a high or classy road through this thread. To them, there's not much of an apology at all.

The thread has quieted down now. We can get back to the business of keeping the information going.

I don't think anyone has seen him post or heard from him yet. Uptown, which is where I think he was fromm was pretty dry until last night. Some water came in then, but I don't think its ever gone beyond the point of being say, ankle deep. The biggest issue there has been looting, and hopefully he's been able to stay away from than.

"They bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting into. I say, LET 'em crash!"

It's kinda interesting to see how many forms the "they're poor by choice, so fuggim'" argument can take.