Israel to World: "Suck It."

As loathe as I am to admit it (I have flagged VHS twice already for being willfully obtuse/trolly and borderline offensive) I'm pretty sure that was a poorly-signposted joke

xpost

Hope so.

Bad enough a badly drawn map without the signposts also being an issue tbh

ffs take it to the Badly Drawn Map thread on ilm

Oh yeah baby let’s go pic.twitter.com/qiffYnVTuc

— babs (@cowgirl_beebop) May 16, 2021

What nationality are you, ilxor user left

― flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Sunday, May 16, 2021 2:01 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

is COINTELPRO a nationality?

🚨 Latest update from the Ministry of Health in #Gaza: 200 Palestinians now killed in Israel's all-out military assault, including 59 children. 1,305 injured. It's unthinkably brutal.

— Rohan Talbot (@rohantalbot) May 17, 2021

Analysis: Biden administration approves $735 million weapons sale to Israel, raising red flags for some House Democrats https://t.co/s31SytlGpE

— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) May 17, 2021

(u know the fed/cop jacketing thing is considered kind of a shitty thing to do in certain circles that said it's prob a popular cop tactic considering how consistently it's employed to warn against anything that goes "too far")

fuck america of course along with any remaining defenders of its piece of shit president

yeah fuck this dude. not even the courtesy of a bOtH sIdEs

expire yourself old man.

BREAKING: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says he has not seen any Israeli evidence of Hamas operating in a Gaza office building that Israel destroyed in an airstrike. The building housed The Associated Press, broadcaster Al-Jazeera and other media. https://t.co/DhZAWf23ID

— The Associated Press (@AP) May 17, 2021

Shocked, shocked

Tut tut, slapped wrists, try not to do it again... for a few years anyway.

BREAKING: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says he has not seen any Israeli evidence of Hamas operating in a Gaza office building that Israel destroyed in an airstrike. The building housed The Associated Press, broadcaster Al-Jazeera and other media. https://t.co/DhZAWf23ID
— The Associated Press (@AP) May 17, 2021

― the mai tai quinn (voodoo chili), Monday, May 17, 2021 10:02 AM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Good on Blinken for contradicting what Nethanyahu, Israel diplomats and the IDF have said. Which was that they confirmed that they have shown the smoking gun evidence of the Hamas presence in the building evidence to US officials before striking.

It’s important for me to separate the indigeneity of a people, their rights to sef determination with the oppresive states apparatus, and Table’s post got me jumpy. I would like to apologize, specifically to Left for my behavior.

I stand by the notion that neither Israel as it is nor the treatment of Jews in Palestine prior to 1922 are a path to peace and that both will have to forego the particular of an ethno-state if they want peace.

I don't need an apology but thanks I'm still not sure how much of the disagreement was/is about facts vs how much is about framing assuming they're even separable but nm

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

Arguably the only people with a traceable claim to indigeneity to eretz Yisrael might be the pre-Abrahamic Canaanites, if there are any around.

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Monday, May 17, 2021 12:16 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A couple of preliminary points before my big one: (1) almost 50% of the Jewish population of Israel came from the middle east rather than Europe (plus a small % from Ethiopia); (2) technically, the "white people from Europe" can trace their lineage back to what is now Israel too (genetic tests have shown this), but you have to go back pretty far.

My bigger issue: I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept. I think it has no place in modern left discourse whatsoever.

Which is to say I reject the "ancestral lands" idea as silly. But I also reject the idea that there is a nation called Palestine that has "indigenous" Palestinians who have an exclusionary right to everything that was known as Palestine under the British mandate and/or Ottoman Empire before it.

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:16 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

45% of jewish Israeli identify as Askhenazi. The rest is a mix of Sephardic, Mizhari, Beta Israel (Ethiopians) and mixed decent. Jewish israelis represents 3/4 of Israel’s total population, not factoring Palestinian territories of course.

The notion that any jew can be considered ‘white people of Europe’ is also contentious.

My bigger issue: I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept. I think it has no place in modern left discourse whatsoever.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:28 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

As a settler in Canada who works with indigenous nations I disagree but that’s another topic.

guys guys

can you let the grown-ups talk for a second

🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀

— Israel ישראל (@Israel) May 17, 2021

I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept.

hmmm, you might try arguing this with Australian aboriginals, among the dozens of examples which rapidly come to mind.

They're the Elon Musk of nation-states.

and here I thought the IDF tweeting the "before/after" meme with the residential building in rubble was tasteless

even worse:

Make no mistake. Every rocket has an address. What would you do if that address was yours?

— Israel ישראל (@Israel) May 17, 2021

xp Well let me get more specific. Certainly if you're talking about a land that literally had no contact with other lands for thousands of years and suddenly has an influx of settlers, you can at least make the case for the idea of "indigeneity," but I still think it's problematic to the extent it can be used to define any kind of exclusionary land rights. Palestine, however, is not one of those places, it has been ruled by a succession of empires for thousands of years. People from all over the region and the world have been settling there throughout that time. I do not buy that there is an "indigenous group" called the Palestinians that is analogous to Australian aboriginals.

ty. that clarification defines a much narrower idea than "indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept."

yeah, danger of dashing off political posts in between work stuff I guesss

People from all over the region and the world have been settling there throughout that time

My understanding is that those peoples are the ones that can be called indigenous Palestinians.

Why should a Bosnian Muslim family that settled in Palestine in the 1870s be considered "Palestinian" and "indigenous" if a Jewish family that came 50 years later is not?

seems like there’s a mutability to the concept of “whiteness”, depending on the mileage zionists can wring out of it on any given day

Hmm maybe it actually has something to do with the fact that Europe never actually accepted Jews as European?

whiteness had a "mutability" for Nazis too

Why should a Bosnian Muslim family that settled in Palestine in the 1870s be considered "Palestinian" and "indigenous" if a Jewish family that came 50 years later is not?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:53 PM (twelve seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have no problem considering them both indigenous.

Then where is the historical line? Post-48 is no longer "indigenous"?

ie when cozying up to anti-Semitic but ‘pro-Israel’ evangelicals w deep pockets, Very White. when trying to score points in liberal institutions like the op ed pages of the NYT or WaPo, maybe not quite as white.

how sinister

yeah fucking around with ppl like John Hagee is pretty sinister

Then where is the historical line? Post-48 is no longer "indigenous"?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:59 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

No idea and it is a good question, but to me a big part of human rights is that people should be free of the burdens of the past, and I'd include post-Hypercacher siege french jews moving to Israel and that 1870 Bosnian muslim family alike.

I think we'll need some calipers if we really want to solve this

otm

I don't really think AIPAC fundraisers are leaning in close to evangelical bigwigs and whispering "I'm white btw." Also a lot of the evangelical church isn't white. But that's getting a bit afield.

one's indigeneity to Palestine or Israel has no connection to whether one is the perpetrator or victim of human rights abuses, which seems like the bigger issue atm.

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/my-people-were-here-before-your-people/

Israel PM twitter account is utterly deranged.

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong.

— PM of Israel (@IsraeliPM) August 29, 2018

Wonder what Hamas were doing in there

🔴 Update: Israel has destroyed Gaza's only laboratory testing for the coronavirus, a senior health official said https://t.co/p40AxaDb2D

— Middle East Eye (@MiddleEastEye) May 17, 2021

with something like 40 000 + displaced people it won't only be bombs that is killing Palestinian civilians

xxxxxp Okay yeah points noted.

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/my-people-were-here-before-your-people/

― Left, Monday, May 17, 2021 6:28 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Thank you for this!