Israel to World: "Suck It."

people have a right to defend themselves against keir starmer

https://jewishcurrents.org/the-nakba-demands-justice/

Yeah turns out in order for peace to happen one crew is going to understand that the path of genocide taken since 1948 js not going to cut it for peace proposals, and the other is going to have to accept that Jews have a claim to the land and rights should be given as equal citizens. It seems to be novelty to fascist leaders in the region and to western leftist twitter warriors, but the calls for this sort of understanding had been growing across the divide within the population until Nethanyahu threw a wrench to save his ass.

(It obviously means, and I know you’ll agree, that jewish people living in the Levant need to stop aligning themselves with the US and their imperial actions accross the Middle East)

“Reconciliation” in these formulations is not a politically neutral call for peace, but rather an ideological paradigm predicated on Palestinian submission. The framework purports to provide a path to new relationships between divided groups, redressing historical injustices and paving the way for ethical coexistence. But in Israel, the term is weaponized to coerce Palestinians into passivity in the face of colonial subjugation by implicitly threatening them with state-sanctioned collective punishment—there will be peace on the colonizer’s terms, or else.

I never pushed back against Jewish self-determination. I pushed back against the legitimacy of an apartheid state. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't conflate the Jewish diaspore with the murderous ethno-state of Israel.

“Reconciliation” in these formulations is not a politically neutral call for peace, but rather an ideological paradigm predicated on Palestinian submission. The framework purports to provide a path to new relationships between divided groups, redressing historical injustices and paving the way for ethical coexistence. But in Israel, the term is weaponized to coerce Palestinians into passivity in the face of colonial subjugation by implicitly threatening them with state-sanctioned collective punishment—there will be peace on the colonizer’s terms, or else.

― Left, Sunday, May 16, 2021 7:43 PM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is not the type of reconciliation I’m arguing for and you know it.

the calls for this sort of understanding had been growing across the divide within the population

what's your evidence of this growing understanding? I don't see much of anyone in Israel moving towards ending the occupation

Matti Friedman’s Jerusalem of Glue article is a good start!

paywalled for me, care to summarize?

my evidence against any movement towards the "peace process" is that in last month's election only one or two non-Arab parties arguably support ending the occupation, and they combined for 13 seats of the 120 in the knesset. the israeli consensus seems to be in favor of maintaining the status quo, or worse

Very cool that Twitter allows official mouthpieces of national govts to commit dangerous libel against individual private citizens peacefully protesting:

When celebrities like @BellaHadid advocate for throwing Jews into the sea, they are advocating for the elimination of the Jewish State.

This shouldn't be an Israeli-Palestinian issue. This should be a human issue.

Shame on you.#IsraelUnderAttack pic.twitter.com/PJQHT90cNy

— Israel ישראל (@Israel) May 16, 2021

tbf VHS who are you talking to that is here? i haven't seen anyone here advocating for the expulsion of jews and the simple reversal of apartheid in the region and the twitter warriors or whoever you are addressing cant see your posts here, it is just very alienating. I know this is a topic where one often encounters bad faith conflations of all kinds but the discussion I have seen here seems to be mostly people reminding themselves to complicate the simplistic binaries and simplifications that are rife in coverage and propaganda. Just a reminder that projecting a windmill onto your interlocutor's chest and then tilting at that is pretty dehumanising.

since we're doing patronising map-making prescriptions though, if anyone is interested this is a very good resource by Forensic Architecture showing the history of israel palestines changing 'borders' since 1967. Eyal Weizman who founded forensic architecture is israeli and his book 'hollow land' is a brilliant discussion of this topic.

https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/map-en.html

I wonder if you can even map the Ottoman empire for crying out loud.

This is a pretty unintentionally hilarious burn tbf. Don't talk about the anime if you haven't read the manga.

Time and again people on the right and 'educated' liberals continuously throw a bogus minimum knowledge barrier on all sorts of issues, as if seeing a bombed building or videos of killing and lynching of Palestinians isn't enough.

Italian port workers refuse to load arms shipment destined for Israel

Press TV's Max Civili reports from Rome#FreePalestine pic.twitter.com/LbmGCNxsq9

— Press TV (@PressTV) May 17, 2021

As loathe as I am to admit it (I have flagged VHS twice already for being willfully obtuse/trolly and borderline offensive) I'm pretty sure that was a poorly-signposted joke

xpost

Hope so.

Bad enough a badly drawn map without the signposts also being an issue tbh

ffs take it to the Badly Drawn Map thread on ilm

Oh yeah baby let’s go pic.twitter.com/qiffYnVTuc

— babs (@cowgirl_beebop) May 16, 2021

What nationality are you, ilxor user left

― flagpost fucking (darraghmac), Sunday, May 16, 2021 2:01 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

is COINTELPRO a nationality?

🚨 Latest update from the Ministry of Health in #Gaza: 200 Palestinians now killed in Israel's all-out military assault, including 59 children. 1,305 injured. It's unthinkably brutal.

— Rohan Talbot (@rohantalbot) May 17, 2021

Analysis: Biden administration approves $735 million weapons sale to Israel, raising red flags for some House Democrats https://t.co/s31SytlGpE

— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) May 17, 2021

(u know the fed/cop jacketing thing is considered kind of a shitty thing to do in certain circles that said it's prob a popular cop tactic considering how consistently it's employed to warn against anything that goes "too far")

fuck america of course along with any remaining defenders of its piece of shit president

yeah fuck this dude. not even the courtesy of a bOtH sIdEs

expire yourself old man.

BREAKING: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says he has not seen any Israeli evidence of Hamas operating in a Gaza office building that Israel destroyed in an airstrike. The building housed The Associated Press, broadcaster Al-Jazeera and other media. https://t.co/DhZAWf23ID

— The Associated Press (@AP) May 17, 2021

Shocked, shocked

Tut tut, slapped wrists, try not to do it again... for a few years anyway.

BREAKING: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says he has not seen any Israeli evidence of Hamas operating in a Gaza office building that Israel destroyed in an airstrike. The building housed The Associated Press, broadcaster Al-Jazeera and other media. https://t.co/DhZAWf23ID
— The Associated Press (@AP) May 17, 2021

― the mai tai quinn (voodoo chili), Monday, May 17, 2021 10:02 AM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Good on Blinken for contradicting what Nethanyahu, Israel diplomats and the IDF have said. Which was that they confirmed that they have shown the smoking gun evidence of the Hamas presence in the building evidence to US officials before striking.

It’s important for me to separate the indigeneity of a people, their rights to sef determination with the oppresive states apparatus, and Table’s post got me jumpy. I would like to apologize, specifically to Left for my behavior.

I stand by the notion that neither Israel as it is nor the treatment of Jews in Palestine prior to 1922 are a path to peace and that both will have to forego the particular of an ethno-state if they want peace.

I don't need an apology but thanks I'm still not sure how much of the disagreement was/is about facts vs how much is about framing assuming they're even separable but nm

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

Arguably the only people with a traceable claim to indigeneity to eretz Yisrael might be the pre-Abrahamic Canaanites, if there are any around.

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Monday, May 17, 2021 12:16 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A couple of preliminary points before my big one: (1) almost 50% of the Jewish population of Israel came from the middle east rather than Europe (plus a small % from Ethiopia); (2) technically, the "white people from Europe" can trace their lineage back to what is now Israel too (genetic tests have shown this), but you have to go back pretty far.

My bigger issue: I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept. I think it has no place in modern left discourse whatsoever.

Which is to say I reject the "ancestral lands" idea as silly. But I also reject the idea that there is a nation called Palestine that has "indigenous" Palestinians who have an exclusionary right to everything that was known as Palestine under the British mandate and/or Ottoman Empire before it.

I apologize if this is stupid brain stuff but...aren't the Jewish settlers...white people from Europe? It's possible I've been listening to the wrong podcasts and/or lack context but I was under the impression the Palestinians were the only people that could be said to be indigenous to where they live. Re the "ancestral lands" framing.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:16 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

45% of jewish Israeli identify as Askhenazi. The rest is a mix of Sephardic, Mizhari, Beta Israel (Ethiopians) and mixed decent. Jewish israelis represents 3/4 of Israel’s total population, not factoring Palestinian territories of course.

The notion that any jew can be considered ‘white people of Europe’ is also contentious.

My bigger issue: I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept. I think it has no place in modern left discourse whatsoever.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, May 17, 2021 1:28 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

As a settler in Canada who works with indigenous nations I disagree but that’s another topic.

guys guys

can you let the grown-ups talk for a second

🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀

— Israel ישראל (@Israel) May 17, 2021

I think indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept.

hmmm, you might try arguing this with Australian aboriginals, among the dozens of examples which rapidly come to mind.

They're the Elon Musk of nation-states.

and here I thought the IDF tweeting the "before/after" meme with the residential building in rubble was tasteless

even worse:

Make no mistake. Every rocket has an address. What would you do if that address was yours?

— Israel ישראל (@Israel) May 17, 2021

xp Well let me get more specific. Certainly if you're talking about a land that literally had no contact with other lands for thousands of years and suddenly has an influx of settlers, you can at least make the case for the idea of "indigeneity," but I still think it's problematic to the extent it can be used to define any kind of exclusionary land rights. Palestine, however, is not one of those places, it has been ruled by a succession of empires for thousands of years. People from all over the region and the world have been settling there throughout that time. I do not buy that there is an "indigenous group" called the Palestinians that is analogous to Australian aboriginals.

ty. that clarification defines a much narrower idea than "indigeneity is complete bullshit as as concept."

yeah, danger of dashing off political posts in between work stuff I guesss

People from all over the region and the world have been settling there throughout that time

My understanding is that those peoples are the ones that can be called indigenous Palestinians.

Why should a Bosnian Muslim family that settled in Palestine in the 1870s be considered "Palestinian" and "indigenous" if a Jewish family that came 50 years later is not?

seems like there’s a mutability to the concept of “whiteness”, depending on the mileage zionists can wring out of it on any given day

Hmm maybe it actually has something to do with the fact that Europe never actually accepted Jews as European?