The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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better than leaving your pants in a patient

― remy bean, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

whoah this went weird places - oddly I pretty much am in John Justen's (and Ally's!) corner. Nurturing revenge fantasies is never helpful, or healthy, or productive of anything - no matter what the crime or the guilt of the aggressor (cf. capital punishment thread).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

(and yes I do have personal experience with people who have been raped/assaulted - given the levels of violence in this world I imagine almost everybody knows SOMEONE this has happened to)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

A number of people that I respect reacted very strongly to lurker on this thread. I don't think this anecdote really informs the debate, but, honestly, I don't get the vitriol.

I remember, in high school, seeing a trio of self-styled toughs who went after a friend of mine, making fun of her in the most relentless, cruel, and nasty way. She was a completely harmless girl, never gave anyone a hard time; they were going after her because she was vulnerable, and they got off on making her hurt.

I thought about how nice it would be to pull a gun on those pathetic, piece-of-shit motherfuckers. Make them grovel on the floor, call me "sir", beg for their lives. To turn their arrogance upside-down, to make it so that -- despite the fact that there were three of them, one of me, and any one of them could've beaten the shit out of me -- they were powerless, and I could force them to confront their own folly, to be a hair's breadth away from a death caused solely by their own arrogance and cruelty, and to be spared from it only by an act of mercy that exceeded anything of which they themselves were capable.

Obviously, he didn't act on it. It takes a lot to overcome all the obstacles that keep us from killing or seriously injuring another human being.

This fantasy is elaborate, but it doesn't seem that exceptional to me. For a lot of kids who feel powerless these kind of fantasies are a way of dealing with their feelings of impotence and shame, not to mention justifiable anger.

The point Lurker is missing is the fact that the vast majority of kids don't kill or inflict serious physical harm on others, just as he didn't, so there must be something that keeps this rage in check.

But, yeah, kids should have access to guns only under controlled circumstances. We're already doing that, though imperfectly.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

it seems exceptional to me in that he's arguing that such fantasies (which he describes in rather disturbingly unnecessary detail) are somehow morally justifiable and potentially actionable. They aren't. They're stupid and counter-productive and simply an indulgence of humanity's worst tendencies.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

but don't get me wrong I had lots of teenage revenge fantasies too! Teenagers do that.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's just posting the fantasy in lurid detail that was a bit of a gross shift in tone for the thread. and then all the weird, defensive, "oh, but you guys would think it was okay if my friend had been raped/was black" and the harping on rape.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

in my mind i harped on the black

― remy bean, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:39 (nineteen years ago)

John, if a rape survivor expressed to you the desire to torture and murder her rapist, would you consider that "creepy as fuck"? Would you tell her so?

YES, YOU NUTJOB.

-- John Justen, Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:56 AM (7 hours ago)

Well, then you'd be a piece of shit, frankly, for doing so.

this exchange is TOTALLY CREEPY AS FUCK.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

I harped on him being a boring idiot with nothing to add besides being fucked up

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

as if counselors should be going around encouraging people to nurture violent revenge fantasies. yeah, that sounds like the road to mental health right there for sure yep.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

not to get too boring myself here but posting that shit to the internet to try and make some kind of point IS dumb and fucked up and he got what he was asking for, fair's fair

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, when lurker originally posted the revenge fantasy I wondered if maybe I was overreacting by being weirded out, but then, in response to Kerm being weirded out AND RACE NOT HAVING BEEN MENTIONED AT ALL, lurker said this:

Really? What if I told you that she was [insert race here] and they were yelling racial epithets at her -- would it be OK then? Because it's definitely very important to me, you see, that I be indignant for the right reasons. I'll wait expectantly while you tell me what those are.

and that just seems so defensive and from a conversation lurker was having in his head, not a conversation that was taking place in this thread at all.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

but John Justen has covered this already, better than I.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think he was trying to argue that the fantasy is morally justifiable. It's a fantasy. He was trying to argue that it is understandable that one might feel this way.

He does argue that it is potentially actionable, and I agree with you that it isn't, or rather that it may be but in only the most extreme, outlying cases (otherwise, there would be more news stories).

I don't think he was saying that revenge fantasies should be encouraged.

He was being defensive and dull-witted.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

uh I just quoted a post where he specifically indicates that NOT encouraging revenge fantasies makes someone "a piece of shit".

but yes, let's drop it and move on oy vey

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

A few quick points, and I'm done:

1) First and foremost, I apologize for bringing up rape, and if that was a trigger for anyone. My intent was to find out if John Justen's problem was that what I felt was with my situation specifically, or with the idea of revenge fantasies, etc. in general, no matter WHO was experiencing them. Look, it was deep in the a.m., and some dude was hectoring me endlessly about something I felt for ten seconds as a kid: I won't claim to have been at my best.

2) I stick to my guns absolutely on this point: people have fantasies like the one I described all the time. That's normal. The problem is acting on them, or obsessing about them. If you think it was inappropriate of me to post it, fine, that's fair enough.

3) Another one of my points: if I could get this riled up, and the wrong didn't even happen to me, how must the people who've actually been wronged (or who think they have) feel? Based on my experiences, most of them have had varying degrees of desire for revenge, and I'm not going to call that desire "creepy" by a long shot: again, it's just normal.

4) Then again, I will say this: I was once accosted/attacked by a gang of people. Didn't really get beaten up, but got the shit scared out of me. You'd think that I'd harbor fantasies against them, but I didn't at the time, and don't now. I think that people often tend to get more worked up over a wrong suffered by someone else -- again, part of the point of my story.

5) I'm glad that Nabisco and Trayce get where I was coming from; I'm sad that Ally and Tombot are infuriated. I wish I hadn't posted to begin with, as it was time we could've all spent doing something with/for the people we love, instead of arguing over this crap.

xpost no, Shakey Mo, I said that judging someone harshly for it, and describing it as "creepy as fuck", was shitty. If you told one of my friends who had been raped that she was creepy as fuck for having fantasies of torturing her rapist, I would think you were an asshole. Sorry, but I'm not budging an inch on that one: torture victims are entitled to imagine turnabout, they're just not entitled to act it out (and probably shouldn't spend a lot of time obsessing about it, which is still miles away from having the thought at all).

― lurker #2421, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

Lurker misunderstood John's response and thought John meant that he would not be sympathetic to the pathos of the victim.

Obviously, to the rest of us, John did not mean that.

He really wasn't arguing that John was a piece of shit because he wouldn't encourage revenge fantasies.

But, I agree. I'll drop it.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

What about the gun control debate?

I have a question, and I know it's probably answered easily-- but what's the upside of allowing people to have handguns? At all? I mean, pretend every handgun stopped working today, so the "bad people have them" argument is lost. What advantages do handguns carry? I'm sure this has been explained upthread, and I'm even sure that I've responded, but I'd love to see a nice little list. Because most of the reasons I've heard have been like "so people can defend themselves" and that. But there are other, less lethal, and easier to use options (like pepper spray... or booby traps)

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

Well, private citizens or anyone?

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

Booby traps are, for the most part, illegal.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry to try the D.C. bullyteam's patience: I don't think Lurker's been making his point very well or appealingly here, but people can at least try to be fair regardless. E.g., people keep talking about "nurturing" revenge fantasies here, which is a totally sleazy misinterpretation -- the issue was never whether revenenge fantasies should be nurtured, it was more that you shouldn't label someone a COMPLETE psychopath for once having gotten really pissed off and imagined taking violent action. No matter how clumsily he happens to describe that moment on the internet.

I can TOTALLY see why it bothers people that he's trying to hang that sort of thing on sympathetic imagined victims like women who have been raped, or victims of racial intimidation. But I'm thinking that's just clumsy rhetoric, and not anything creepy.

Maybe a better way to get back on the issue would be to ask the following: if someone you knew had been victimized/traumatized in one of those ways, and told you that he or she was going to buy a gun for protection, and this impulse was coming from feelings of fear and powerlessness and anger, what would you say? I mean, I'm guessing Lurker would say "don't get the gun," and John would say "get the gun and take a course that'll teach you to be responsible with it," but wondering more about the emotional response.

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry, xpost, we seem to have gotten past examining Lurker, so just ignore my still talking about it!

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

The booby traps bit was facetious, I apologize :)

xxp

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

Private citizens, sure. I can see why the military and law enforcement might want to have them.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

not having to rewrite the constitution is the advantage

― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

THEY CAN TAKE MY BOOBY-TRAPS WHEN THEY PRY THEM OFF MY COLD, DEAD SEVERED ARM.

xxxxpost: "DC bullyteam" is the new "Noize dudes", apparently.

― John Justen, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

The advantage? I think it is because they can be carried on your person much easier than other types of guns.

As i understand it, it is more difficult to be accurate with a handgun.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, FB has it right: the specific advantage is that they're small and handheld.

swords:daggers and so on

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

Let me specify then: What's the advantage to allowing people to have them? The 'hunting' thing doesn't really work. Or does it? Do people pistol-hunt? Pheaants or something? I recall hearing something like that.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/images/ae/reviews/tombstone3.jpg
me, tombot, river wolf, john justen

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.wallpaper.net.au/wallpaper/movies/The%2520Ant%2520Bully%25204%2520-%25201152x864.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

http://barros.rusf.ru/films/posters/ant_bully_2006_poster1.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

How have I not heard about this movie yet?????

― Curt1s Stephens, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

I meant more of a Tango & Cash duo!

― nabisco, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco OTM throughout. There's nothing creepy about Lurker's posts on this thread at all.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

I thought about how nice it would be to pull a gun on those pathetic, piece-of-shit motherfuckers. Make them grovel on the floor, call me "sir", beg for their lives. To turn their arrogance upside-down, to make it so that -- despite the fact that there were three of them, one of me, and any one of them could've beaten the shit out of me -- they were powerless, and I could force them to confront their own folly, to be a hair's breadth away from a death caused solely by their own arrogance and cruelty, and to be spared from it only by an act of mercy that exceeded anything of which they themselves were capable.

It is for this very reason that I'm strongly in favor of gun control.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:23 (nineteen years ago)

I read that, Mr. Que. Thanks.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

alls i'm saying is that's the post that really creeps people out

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I know. It doesn't creep me out, though, because I understand the point he was trying to make.

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

okay, but people who are creeped out by the way he made his point also understand the point he was trying to make.

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

his point seems to be that its okay to pull a gun on someone if they are calling you a bad name. and that's what happened in Columbine and in Blacksburg.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

the post says nothing about rape, nothing about murder nothing about defending yourself from a mugging, and that is why people think it is creepy. also, horseshoe OTM, i understand the point he was trying to make but i think it is creepy

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

i was also creeped out by his fixation on repeatedly referencing rape victims and hate crime victims over and over and over again as like a "hypothetical situation", just fyi. like i said elsewhere, you can have a point that is partially correct and still come off like a pornographic creep. but thx for the thoughts, jaymc.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:32 (nineteen years ago)

put it in yr spreadsheet.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:32 (nineteen years ago)

xxp WTF, that's not his point at all. His point was that he was tempted to perform a violent act and that he's glad that there's gun control or else it would have been infinitely easier to enact that fantasy. Are none of you ever scared about what you're capable of? Wasn't there some Noise Board thread recently where everyone talked about how they frequently imagined themselves jumping in front of trains and stuff?

― jaymc, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

OK, I am genuinely surprised that people think that first post is really creepy.

I think that his rhetoric after that post was reactionary and overwrought, but are people really weirded out by that revenge fantasy?

Or maybe people have a history with him that I am unaware of?

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

not having to rewrite the constitution is the advantage

Should the constitution be set in stone? Haven't values, threats, opportunities, etc. changed in the last two and a bit centuries? Shouldn't it be at least reviewed every fifty years or so to decide whether it's still worth hanging a flag on?

Sorry for being a crappy Brit about all this but "because my constitution says I can" is fuck all justification for anything in my eyes.

The right to bear arms for defence (or at least the right of Protestants to do so) was a tenet of the English Bill of Rights a hundred years earlier but I for one am glad that English Law isn't like tablets from Mount Sinai.

― onimo, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

Mr. Que, that was most definitely not his point.

― Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

oh I sounded like a smarmy cunt there, sorry :)

― onimo, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

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