Vaccines, Infrastructure, and Kids In Cages: US Politics April 2021

While I admit the idea of vaccine passports makes me queasy and apprehensive

You know it's been mandatory to get certain shots to enter certain countries since the mid 20th century, right?

Vaccine passports are the new death panels. Just two words strung together to manufacture conservative outrage.

I had to get vaccinated before starting college (against hepatitis iirc) and before travelling to various places, so yes it's a bit silly to try to make a vaccination requirement for processes like that seem like a new diabolical method of social control.

But it's not accurate to say they're like the entirely fictitious "death panels" IMO (for example: https://forward.ny.gov/excelsior-pass-business). Non-idiots who worry about vaccine passports (we should probably say "passes" instead) are concerned about private businesses tiering services based on vaccination status, which may have discriminatory effects beyond sorting people who wanted to get vaxxed and people who didn't—e.g., will a stadium still let you in if you are legitimately unable to get vaccinated? There's also the fact that they're almost certain to be digital, which automatically raises data privacy concerns.

There's also the question of what counts as a valid reason to opt out—are longstanding religious objections to vaccines considered legit? etc.

sic, I agree shutting the borders would have an effect. It should have happened a long time ago and they should still be shut. I’m just not convinced the benefits of doing it now it would be big enough for the social and economic harm (and confusion tbh, given lockdown restrictions are lifting in all other parts of life) that it would cause. It’s certainly not the thing they should prioritise. Seems like a very expensive move politically.

Rob is more what I'm talking about. I know we disagree on political issues unperson, but there's legitimately no reason to automatically assume the worst of me at all junctures.

"longstanding religious objections to vaccines considered legit"

granted I was raised catholic and not some speaking-in-tongues protestant sect, but religious objections to vaccines make absolutely zero fucking sense to me, so IMO, no.

I know we disagree on political issues unperson, but there's legitimately no reason to automatically assume the worst of me at all junctures.

I don't, but you were literally rolling out the most boneheaded right-wing language of the moment, the kind of thing only someone who's never left their home state actually believes. Re what rob said:

will a stadium still let you in if you are legitimately unable to get vaccinated?

They shouldn't. Nobody has an inalienable right to attend an NFL game or a Springsteen concert.

are longstanding religious objections to vaccines considered legit?

They shouldn't be. The public's health takes precedence over the opinions of your imaginary friend and/or their representatives.

just not convinced the benefits of doing it now it would be big enough for the social and economic harm

Yeah, I get it. I just think that: society is people. The economy is people. Killing tens of thousands fewer of them each month is harm reduction. There are thousands of empty hotel rooms near airports, so putting people in them to quarantine is economic stimulus, not harm.

The sort of people who object to "vaccine passports" have probably never traveled internationally, let alone are doing so regularly throughout the pandemic. Certainly not in numbers large enough to make an electoral difference. Anyone who is flying regularly in and out can probably adapt to doing their work in a business hotel on the way in. Announcing along the lines of "we've come so far, the end is in sight, cases are rising so we just need to do this for three months, you can travel if you've vaccinated etc" is positive messaging and will actually impact a vanishingly small percentage of the population, few of whom are likely to vote for Biden again anyway.

Saving millions of lives should be considered as a public good anyway, rather than politically volatile. But I'd like to think the insanely massive return vote for Labor in Western Australia last month suggests that voters respond well to having their lives, and ability to go outside, saved.

(Admittedly, the state does not have a Murdoch paper. On the other hand, this didn't work either.)

They shouldn't. Nobody has an inalienable right to attend an NFL game or a Springsteen concert.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Sunday, April 18, 2021 12:27 PM (three hours ago)

"The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public."

that's about accessibility and inclusion, not a general right of the populace

the small amt of people medically unable to get vaccines can get their own card

Most people's disabilities carry a low risk of killing the person next to them.

c'mon that's such a disingenuous reading of the ADA

but I'm sure the Republicans will be exploiting that angle soon enough, you should send it on to them

I'm sure the Republicans will be exploiting that angle soon enough, you should send it on to them

They've been pushing it for a while already. Note the "ADA" language on this bullshit "face mask exemption card":

https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/face-mask-exempt-cards-fake-coronavirus.png

Who cares what scamming asshole republicans are doing? The ADA has been mentioned in every article I've read about this--there's no consensus on whether these passes constitute a violation yet, but y'all are simply wrong if you think this is super obvious and I'm merely echoing the right-wing liar parade here.

that's about accessibility and inclusion, not a general right of the populace

the small amt of people medically unable to get vaccines can get their own card

― "Gaspar? No way." (sleeve), Sunday, April 18, 2021 3:52 PM (twenty-eight minutes ago)

Not sure how being barred from entry to a potentially massive range of public businesses due to a genuine medical condition doesn't count as an "accessibility and inclusion" problem, but ftr "their own card" was basically all I had in mind when I asked the question in the first place. I brought up the religious objections because the avalanche of "religious liberty" lawsuits that will follow is an absolute guaranteed inevitability, and judging by the state of the SC, it will probably work.

Not being vaccinated does not constitute "a genuine medical condition" by any definition of "medical condition" I am aware of. Being unable to safely take a vaccine due to a genuine medical condition is another matter from what we have been discussing. Merely refusing to get one when it is available is making a conscious choice, not a condition you cannot alter.

Being unable to safely take a vaccine due to a genuine medical condition is another matter from what we have been discussing

That's quite literally what I've been discussing, but if that wasn't clear it would certainly explain why my concerns about discrimination are being perceived as GOP talking points.

Tbh I just think the possibility that people will be going around sharing their medical information before entering any sort of public arena is a little concerning. And it should be to everyone.

The possibilities for fraud, bias, and government intrusion are already wild given the way so much of our society works. Your vaccine record might very well be connected to the rest of your medical records. Imagine TSA but for vaccines. You think that's going to work? Please elaborate if so.

If there's a way that such passes or records can be verified that wouldn't also intrude on other medical privacy and accommodation issues, then I'm all for it. For the record.

Like showing your vaccination card?

Medical privacy is not so sacrosanct that society should be rendered vulnerable to a pandemic infectious disease that has already killed 560,000 members of that society. To be absolutist on this strikes me as having similarities to the sort of absolutism that seeks to shelter hate speech under the protection of first amendment rights.

When I went to my dentist I was asked a short list of questions regarding my medical state, pertinent to whether I had symptoms associated with the covid19 virus. They also took my temperature before I was admitted. This was an "invasion" of my medical privacy, too.

Plagues times are not good conditions for respecting every kind of individual right.

Imagine TSA but for vaccines.

Imaginings are not very pertinent. Imagine dying from suffocation, hooked to a respirator. It's more real.

Tell me again how cards that couldn't be falsified would work.

If it wasnt a card but a medical database, tell me again what could prevent someone checking vaccinations at the door of a venue also checking to see whether I'm gay, or have seen a therapist recently, or am currently on anti-psychotics. These scenarios aren't far-fetched, and pretending like they are is willfully obtuse.

And as for your comparison to first amendment absolutism, Aimless, spare me.

Y'all are acting like this is some simple solution that will just be pulled together and will totally work and won't be abused. Sorry, not buying it.

No solution is perfect, so you go for the best possible one. Because the goal is to prevent the largest possible number of deaths.

Some people are welfare cheats; other people argue that since some people cheat, welfare should be abolished.

Because the goal is to prevent the largest possible number of deaths.

(evidently not, but)

My problem with this entire conversation is that it’s predicated on whatever strawman policy that comes into one’s head when hearing or saying the words “vaccine passports”. Does anybody know how this would work at this point? Has there been an official proposal with such details? Right now all a “vaccine passport” is is a bogeyman that serves to get people’s hackles up and make them opposed to whatever actions the current administration might want to take to fight the pandemic. Thus my comparisons to “death panels”, which two words were seized upon by conservatives in order to foster echo-chamber type opposition to Obama’s health care agenda. Now if you’ll forgive me, I don’t even want to string those words together anymore. Can we call it something else that better represents (what we think) it will be? Or is it worth even worrying about it until it’s something more than complete speculation?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/18/scams-coronavirus-vaccination-cards/

The ubiquitous cards that everyone loves to post on social media are ripe for forging, who would have predicted this

xpost

I agree that we all seem to be talking about entirely different objects here, but I did post a link to a real vaccine pass program immediately after your previous post about death panels: https://forward.ny.gov/excelsior-pass-business

I think it's fairly safe to say there won't be a national version of that program though.

You need a whole gang of vaccines to emigrate to the US btw fyi rmndr

I had to get an extra medical because I had too many! (Immunity to the is presumed to be evidence that you’ve had tb!)

I think there's no need at the moment to get heavy handed with vaccine requirements. Once daily vaccine rates slow down or stop, if infection rates are still high, we need to start getting stricter.

The cards aren't perfect, they can be faked, but they are a start. Maybe you look for something better if things just continuing being bad for many more months.

Don’t worry, the county of Los Angeles has paid someone to make iPhone wallet card

You have to opt-in to get digital vax record. No app to download, just click on link. You'll be asked for name & DOB. If you have an iPhone, you can add it to Apple Wallet. Options in the works for people who got a shot outside of LA County. 2/ @KNX1070 pic.twitter.com/meL9ynmOvv

— Claudia Peschiutta (@ReporterClaudia) April 17, 2021

“Healthvana”

Get the Simon Belmont shot

I had to get an extra medical because I had too many!

yeah tbf coming from a country with a health-care system, and having traveled before, I didn't really need to tick off new ones - maybe just boosters for pertussis and tetanus?

if things just continuing being bad for many more months

the real problem is likely to be setting standards now when we're likely to see big spikes again in autumn as a) weather drives ppl inside, b) then-current variants roll their sleeves up, and b) initial vaccines start to wear off anyway.

gee, thanks!

Vaccines usually require boosters. Pfizer/Moderna offer at least six to eight-month protection. We'll get the booster then.

And Pfizer's CEO already said as much. It's like a flu shot.

Another endless pharma revenue stream. I can see where the conspiracy theorists are coming from. But also we have a lot of vaccines and medicines that have made life a lot better, so.

in short, big pharma is a land of contrasts

in a big pharma
streams stay with you

This ability of big pharma to create boosters for an ever-mutating virus that has killed millions of people worldwide is just about all that justifies its existence. As opposed to coming up with hair restoration products, anotherviagra-alike, or yet another slightly improved drug for psoriasis, irritable bowel syndrome, or overactive bladder that they can flog on television.

Totally. If we're going to have a multi-trillion-dollar pharmaceutical megalith, it ought to at least try to keep us alive.

also lol Alfred

Vaccines usually require boosters. Pfizer/Moderna offer at least six to eight-month protection. We'll get the booster then.

This is what I said! It's the minutiae of how "vaccine passports" (or w/e) are going to stay valid, in the midst of how the booster rollouts are going to be coordinated (while the initial vaccines are still likely below 75% takeup), and how up-to-date the boosters are going to be, that I see as complicated. Just showing your handwritten vaccine card rn is less than useless, given how forgeable they are.

If we don’t give New Yorkers making over $1 million a tax cut of $60k on average, poor disabled people don’t get in home supports and services. I’m glad Cuomo has his priorities straight https://t.co/NtWStD9UZU pic.twitter.com/uJS72QrHD9

— James Medlock (@jdcmedlock) April 19, 2021

"I had to get an extra medical because I had too many!"

extra medical what?

So far, any legal mandate for showing proof of vaccination in order to participate in normal daily activities in the USA is purely hypothetical. The chances it will be enacted nationwide seem to me extremely low, given the 50-50 split in the Senate. Attempting to enact it state-by-state would be so poorly enforced as to make such restrictions essentially voluntary. A well conceived, well run, well funded and well accepted program would certainly save lives and probably provide some protection against future surges of new variants, which is a foreseeable problem we're likely to be dealing with for another half-decade or more.

I don't foresee it happening and if it were attempted, I think it would almost certainly meet such resistance it would fail in its purpose. But talking about it is a hot-button political topic of the moment, so I guess we'll talk about it.

There's already testing required at lots of places. I imagine proof of vaccination will work as something like a fast pass. I know vaccinated people that have already traveled overseas, and if you didn't have proof of vaccination you need proof of a negative covid test from the previous 72 hours. No idea how liability might play out in all of this.