Vaccines, Infrastructure, and Kids In Cages: US Politics April 2021

This 'whatabout' tendency among some posters itt drives me up a goddamn wall.

'Thank goodness factor x is better under Biden than it was under Trump.'

'Yes, but whatabout factors a, z, and w, HUH, MAKES U THIIIIIINK'

Your points may be valid. You may find a lot of agreement here with your points when the discussion is centered around those particular points. But when your hand is just twitching over the buzzer, waiting to lob a barely-related bad faith retort back in someone's face, it seems clear that you aren't interested in actual discussion.

Lots of things are bad, we can all agree. I don't know why some of y'all insist on ensuring that others feel bad about the things that are bad literally every second of the day. I mean, have fun dying of a coronary at 46 if that's your bag but maybe allow some of the rest of us to relax our cracks just a touch now and again.

froggy otm

frogbs otm

so it comes down to personal comfort, I get it, I wish ppl were generally more open about that instead of doing the whole I'm a sensible grownup posturing

as if what you are doing is not posturing

that's the fucking point. the I'm a reasonable moderate who understands nuance shit looks like posturing from this side too

Man, some of you would be exhausting to live with.

"Oh, I'm so happy, my COVID test came back negative!"

"Oh, you are happy? What about the 1,000 people who died from COVID yesterday? Are you happy about that? Sounds like you don't care about those lives lost."

xposts It doesn't 'come down' to anything. Your intransigent ability to see any shade of gray is your own shit, and it's frankly fuckin' repugnant and (imo) nearly inseparable from hard right 'YOU'RE EITHER 100% WITH US OR 100% AGIN' US' bullshit.

Your refusal to recognize how many people here are mostly with you on most things? It's straight-up fucked. There you go.

Mom, Dad, are the white dude arguing again

fucking horseshoe theory now. fuck this

Honestly, just looking at one of the URLs linked upthread about wall construction?

construction could resume in gaps, gates, and areas where the wall had been built but planned technology had not been installed...

(Biden) halted all federal funding for the border wall on his first day in office...

Officials told Insider that a plan would come "soon" but seemed to have struggled to work out legallyhow to divert funding that had been allocated for the wall under Trump to other projects.

some has already been funded through a congressional authorization and funding allocation. But (...) it's paused while agencies are developing a plan for the President on the management of the federal funds.

This scans very differently to me than “OMG Biden admin will continue wall construction despite his campaign promises!!!” and I think it’s disingenuous at best to post it here as an example of what Biden is doing wrong.

This 'whatabout' tendency among some posters itt drives me up a goddamn wall.

what about the posters who don't do this, though?

ICWYDT

I feel the driving difference in this thread is between people who think fewer people will be hurt by effecting change via bureaucracy vs people who think fewer people will be hurt by effecting change via revolution vs people who think change is impossible and there is so much yelling because no one actually wants anyone to get hurt.

honestly I think Trump's legacy, the thing that sets him apart from any other US President, is how much he made his entire presidency about culture wars and his own ego, to the point where every single issue, from hurricanes to immigration to a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic was actually about *him* instead of the people who were suffering. his entire M.O. was to punish the people who didn't vote for him and to govern as though they didn't exist. he created a culture where his voters would get furious about people wearing facemasks because it meant they trusted science and the "fake news" over our glorious golden boy President. that culture is now singlehandedly threatening to prolong the pandemic even further because so many Republicans are refusing to get vaccinated. I have no clue how Biden can combat that.

Your refusal to recognize how many people here are mostly with you on most things? It's straight-up fucked. There you go.

Who refuses to recognize this? Is it a personal attack on you when Left calls Joe Biden a rapist war criminal?

frogbs booming today.

also <3 DJP’s very kind take

I apologize for running hot, y'all. Particularly high anxiety today. Much love, hugs, etc.

there is so much yelling because no one actually wants anyone to get hurt.

I expect there is much truth in what you say. I just wish revolutionaries produced their intended consequences with a much greater record of success.

thank u I’ve never been otm before feels good

I would also like to point out that will has been good and otm in this thread recently

Lots of things are bad, we can all agree. I don't know why some of y'all insist on ensuring that others feel bad about the things that are bad literally every second of the day. I mean, have fun dying of a coronary at 46 if that's your bag but maybe allow some of the rest of us to relax our cracks just a touch now and again.

― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch)

Your refusal to recognize how many people here are mostly with you on most things? It's straight-up fucked. There you go.

― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch)

This whole digression started with unperson posting something that nobody objected to, and crowing that loser lefties itt would scream that it wasn't good enough.

Trump actively subverted the expert dvice of Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx. He constantly claimed hydroxychloroquine was a miracle cure. He promoted conspiracy theories about a 'plandemic' and 'China virus'. He told the nation the pandemic would disappear, then it was about to be over, then it was getting better, then the numbers were being "fixed" to make him look bad.

I could go on, but why bother.

― sharpening the contraindications (Aimless), Thursday, April 15, 2021 4:42 AM (fourteen minutes ago)

that's me thoroughly telt oh wait none of those are administration policies, and all of them come under tweeting and holding press conferences about how it’s nbd.

The Kent variant is now the most prevalent in the US, found in every single state even AK and HI, and nearly 100% of infections in MT, ND, WY, NM, IA, LA,WV and VT.

Alaska U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Arizona U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
California U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Colorado U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Connecticut U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
District of Columbia U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Florida U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Georgia U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Illinois U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Indiana U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Maine U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Maryland U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Massachusetts U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Michigan U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Minnesota U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Nebraska U.K. variant/Brazilian
New Hampshire U.K. variant/Brazilian
New Jersey U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Ohio U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Oklahoma U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Oregon U.K. variant/Brazilian
Pennsylvania U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Rhode Island U.K. variant/Brazilian
Tennessee U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Texas U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Utah U.K. variant/Brazilian
Washington U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Wisconsin U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Alabama U.K. variant/South African
American Samoa none
Arkansas U.K. variant/Brazilian
Delaware U.K. variant/South African
Guam none
Hawaii U.K. variant/South African
Idaho U.K. variant/South African
Iowa U.K. variant
Kansas U.K. variant/South African
Kentucky U.K. variant/Brazilian
Louisiana U.K. variant
Mississippi U.K. variant/Brazilian/South African
Missouri U.K. variant/South African
Montana U.K. variant
Nevada U.K. variant/South African
New Mexico U.K. variant
New York U.K. variant/South African
North Carolina U.K. variant/South African
North Dakota U.K. variant
Northern Mariana Islands none
Puerto Rico U.K. variant
South Carolina U.K. variant/South African
South Dakota U.K. variant/South African
U.S. Virgin Islands none
Vermont U.K. variant
Virginia U.K. variant/South African
West Virginia U.K. variant
Wyoming U.K. variant

There would have been basically no difference in the public-private partnerships with CVS/Walgreens that have started out as a shitshow and smoothed out over time as supply caught up.

Jared would almost certainly have tried to get a PPE-style battle royale happening between states in order for middlemen to siphon millions out of the process - there's no way it would have gone as fast or smoothly as it has under the previous admin, even if the process had been broadly the same.

Trump probably would have been a much louder asshole in refusing to loosen IP protections for the vaccines, though - Biden's doing that pretty quietly at least.

yeah this sucks, but there are various cases that could be made (eg the US has the worst outbreak of the pando globally so we're holding off until it's under control here, or we're still learning side effects so don't want to let the 'ccines loose willy-nilly into third-world countries), convincing or no - it's the quiet that's most alarming.

I’m ok with Biden so far but if anyone wants to talk about the shit that’s going to go down once the 6-3 Supreme Court starts to REALLLLYYYY make itself heard, I will be all anxiety in here with you.

not sure how “revolutionary” it is to question draconian and ghoulish and unpopular moves like mandatory minimums and giving cops more money. in 2021.

oh wait none of those are administration policies

do tell

I'm with dearly departed Morbz: all US presidents are war criminals. It's legitimately an exercise in ignorance to claim otherwise.

All the talk about "our national enemies" and so on upthread is pukeworthy.

I did a Ctl-F on "our national enemies". nada. Could you quote who or what you are referencing?

still high

I like Biden as president because the fossil is Not Trump. But Trump behaved in ways so exponentially beyond what even our worst war criminal presidents did that a return to semi-normal times means reckoning with inchoate border policies, projects of strength overseas, cuddling up to global conglomerates -- you know, other sins for which we rightly castigated American presidents before Trump.

I mean, I don't pay attention to what Blincken, Austen, and the national security adviser dude say or do (I even had to google their names) because I know I'll loathe them less than their Trump-era predecessors.

Not exact wording, but from epistantophus:

Cozying up with nations/regimes who are not our allies, and who are committing atrocities and human rights violations

Please explain.

Alfred, I actually agree with you! I just don't think that the imperative to be like "everything's so cozy and great under Biden, his policies are such a dream" is remotely correct, or true. They're simply in line with what came before, which *wasn't that great*.

it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table) at 2:32 14 Apr 21

I'm with dearly departed Morbz: all US presidents are war criminals. It's legitimately an exercise in ignorance to claim otherwise.

this is said like once every two days and I wonder who on ilx is supposed to be disputing the point?

perhaps jaymc, the person who brought that statement up in the first place?

"everything's so cozy and great under Biden, his policies are such a dream"

absolutely no one in this thread has been saying, or even suggesting, this though!

But as ever, why would someone saying “all Presidents are war criminals” bother you if you... agree?

not sure how “revolutionary” it is to question draconian and ghoulish and unpopular moves like mandatory minimums and giving cops more money. in 2021.

I strongly doubt giving cops more money is unpopular among white people and am going to need data to support that assertion. From cursory googling, it seems multiple polls show most Americans extremely wary of defunding the police across multiple demographics, including Black people, along with an article from Mother Jones saying "it doesn't matter if it polls poorly", which I agree with but also points towards the policy itself not actually being popular with the majority.

Again, we should not only do it but build time machines and go back 50 years and do it then, but represent things as they are and not what you want them to be.

Um, regarding “our national enemies” that’s probably referring to me when I said Trump cozied up to “nations/regimes who are not our allies”. I was trying not to be all USA! USA! but seriously, did he not strengthen Russia and China by creating a vacuum in global leadership while simultaneously encouraging their worst behavior? Did he not first almost dare NK to start a nuclear war, and then later give support to NK’s totalitarian regime by having meetings/photo ops with Kim and also falling weirdly and publicly in love with him? Did he not drive Iran back to developing nuclear weapons by fucking up the nuclear deal, just because it was Obama’s legacy so he had to tear it down? I mean really, should we just not mention these things, just because all US presidents are bad? I didn’t say these countries are our enemies, but they are certainly not aligned with our values- not that our values are the best! I guess I have to qualify everything I say like that?

I'm with dearly departed Morbz: all US presidents are war criminals. It's legitimately an exercise in ignorance to claim otherwise.

You do this thing where you say "Anyone with eyes can clearly see that 99.9% of elected office holders are soulless, morally depraved monsters who would crush you and everyone you care about if given the chance."

Maybe I just don't think that's a useful frame.

further xp to will: also you probably gloss over Left's "destroy the USA" posts

FWIW, I mentioned "all U.S. presidents are war criminals" as an example of a worldview that I don't share, but it doesn't bother me, exactly. I understand where it comes from.

xp: Ideally that wariness can be converted very quickly with messaging on actual policy around defunding / reforming / whatever: ask people to consider whether they have ever personally had a satisfactory encounter with police, point out budget imbalances and what can be done with the money, pledge to prosecute murdercops and corrupt cops (mb let all weed criminals out of proz to make room?), etc. People are "wary" while what happens instead of cops having tanks and teargas is unknown: they ought to be more enthusiastic when offered a specific better alternative (or twenty better etc).

do tell

me: the main federal policies spreading covid and causing thousands of deaths are still going on. Trump also said and tweeted a lot of unhelpful bullshit.

Aimless: Ah! But what you haven't considered, is that Trump said and tweeted lots of unhelpful bullshit.

me: yeah, I said that. also here are some stats on the actual point.

Aimless: (strokes chin) Did you though

I like Biden as president because the fossil is Not Trump.

When Brett Favre stabbed the Packers in the back I remember a lot of fans saying something to the effect of "I can't be mad at him, he won a Super Bowl for us" and honestly that's how I feel about Biden. I've got the same issues with him that most of you do but at the end of the day, he's the guy that won, and I'm not entirely convinced that a more progressive candidate would have. in fact if you saw the election in Nate Silver terms: "just win Pennsylvania and you're set" - I think Biden was your best shot.

I don't want to be dramatic about this but I really did feel like the 2020 election was America's last chance...if Trump had won I think that would've been it for us. We'd be out of the WHO, out of the Paris Accord, and it's possible we'd never have another fair and free election again. Yes, vaccines would be distributed but 40 million of them would probably be expired after getting left on a tarmac in West Virginia while the Moderna one would suddenly get banned because the CEO retweeted a Washington Post article giving Trump 2 Pinocchios for claiming that masks give you brain damage and make you vote Democrat. Not to mention the shit that would do to our already deteriorating mental health. The past four years were a fucking nightmare, even worse than I thought they would've been, and when it became apparent that Biden had it in the bag I felt legitimately happy because finally a day came where my sense of impending doom wasn't rapidly intensifying. I was actually hopeful!! And I don't want to forget how I felt on that day. I don't want to like Joe Biden, there are dozens of reasons why I shouldn't, but Republicans have been electing such monstrous people that they're forcing me to!!

Those feelings are legit, frogbs

I just turned the teevee on to catch a clip of Biden offering boilerplate sentiments about the fallen dead; it was such a relief to be bored again!

(are there any US presidents who aren't war criminals? Jimmy Carter might get away clean, right? Ford's probably personally clean on Vietnam, despite whatever crimes Americans still committed before he got them out, but idk what he did as veep.)

frogs...yes.

Has there been a poll to see how many people are/were/have been all 'Biden is my guy, my #1 choice, we got the best man in the WH!'? Because I'm willing to bet that % is a one-digit number, maybe low two-digits at best. And Biden has a pretty big family, so you gotta figure they're making up a lot of that demographic.

Joe Bombin (milo z) at 2:54 14 Apr 21

But as ever, why would someone saying “all Presidents are war criminals” bother you if you... agree?


it's repetitive and annoying, doubly so because it's always posted as if it's a big truth bomb that has never been posted before

Ford's probably personally clean on Vietnam, despite whatever crimes Americans still committed before he got them out, but idk what he did as veep.)

East Timor.

it's repetitive and annoying, doubly so because it's always posted as if it's a big truth bomb that has never been posted before

it was specifically posted as "here's a thing that an extremely repetitive and annoying poster used to say all the time"

btw proz priz

ask people to consider whether they have ever personally had a satisfactory encounter with police

I would take this tactic off the table immediately. I've had more racially-fraught encounters with park rangers than I have with police officers; family members who have been directly hassled by the police for nothing, including pulled out of vehicles and handcuffed, then released without any charges because they hadn't done anything, have also had helpful, fruitful encounters with the police. Plus, "satisfactory" is a nebulous concept. If you are speeding, get pulled over, and get a ticket from a respectful and deferential police officer, is that a satisfactory encounter or is it unsatisfactory because you got a speeding ticket? If you survived the encounter, is that "satisfactory"? What is the baseline.

All of which is beside the point that leaving rights issues up to polling numbers is tyranny and we should be doing it because it's the right thing to do. I support changing the messaging to build more groundswell support for it but the primary motivator for reform is more likely to be constant, consistent images of police brutalizing and terrorizing people who haven't done anything, and even then we are in such a media glut that those images feel more like ghoulish entertainment at the expense of people like me than they do a catalyst for change (look, for example, at the past week while the Chauvin trial has been going on).