I mean there are so many valid criticisms of the MCU - the military shilling, the sometimes incomprehensible action sequences, the overreliance on lazy "I know that reference!" easter egg zings, shoehorning in continuity in ways that slow down the films, etc etc. I just think the "all MCU movies are the same" is a lazy dismissal from people that have no intention of granting them any credit at all, and it grates.
I want to like the DCEU more than I do, but I despise Snyder's approach and it has really soured me. I thought the first WW was a sign that things might be headed in a better direction, but WW84 was a letdown and I haven't tackled this thread's behemoth just yet, though I plan to.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:14 (three years ago) link
DJP very much otm, at least with my experience as well. Great post.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link
Man, debating the relative merits of Whedon and Snyder is like debating the relative merits of shit and pus.
― Tsar Bombadil (James Morrison), Wednesday, March 24, 2021 7:09 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
wanted to return to this, because:
1. joss whedon is a mediocre TV director and an abysmal film director2. zack snyder, whatever you want to say about him, has like.... a visual identity and a sense of what makes a good image, and can film action
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link
WW84 is one of the worst movies I've ever seen
It's like someone took all of the misogynistic imaginary complaints about Captain Marvel and said "this would make a good movie in and of itself"
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:16 (three years ago) link
Rest assured if I ever watch either this or the avenger gutbuster I will emphatically not be watching any of the other films for context, that is the way to go imo
― jammy mcnullity (wins), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:18 (three years ago) link
Re: Joss Whedon, I liked his Avengers work but I kind of want to go back to all of the Buffy threads and yell "SEE I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG"
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:19 (three years ago) link
The adolescent indier-than-thou attitude with excessive focus on the fans (or, rather, some extreme strawman conception of the fans' mentality) is the #1 dumbest + most annoying + most boring critical approach wrt the MCU, and I'm always disappointed when it rears its head 'round here. Who past the age of let's be generous and say 23 gives one literal fuck about 'the fans' when forming their opinion about a thing.
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:21 (three years ago) link
I'm sorry but I have to push back on that. There are absolutely bands/genres I will not mess with because of their racist fans, mostly because I do not like putting myself in harm's way for the chance to hear a sweet riff.
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:23 (three years ago) link
I was excited about this, but I couldn't watch the whole thing. I made me feel too impatient, like sitting through an interminably slow JRPG cutscene. The visual excess combined with the complete lack of any single grace note just did me in.
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:28 (three years ago) link
Similar looking action sequences does not mean the films themselves are formulaic
you're right, it's that in conjunction with the many, many other identical aspects re tone, production and development that make them formulaic
it seems weird to argue there's not a strict formula at work there. arguably it's their slurry-like consistency that people most like about it! they find it a reliable entertainment for this reason! I mean, really, how often watching an MCU movie did you experience shock or surprise? did you even want to?
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:28 (three years ago) link
lol 90% of the discourse around “the Snyder cut” has been making fun of the fans It is also not really a strawman to say that some ppl get embarrassingly defensive whenever someone dares criticise the mcu, and we don’t exactly have to go far to find exhibits A through Z around here
― jammy mcnullity (wins), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:29 (three years ago) link
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:30 (three years ago) link
it is so totally miscast and misconceived that it could have been sort of amazing, except it's 2.5 hours long and is insanely boring
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:31 (three years ago) link
slurry-like consistency that people most like about it
Yeah, this is the tone that annoys me.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:32 (three years ago) link
"Formulaic" as a criticism in and of itself is meaningless; the interesting question is "how do you respond to the formula?". Everyone who dislikes pattern A has a pattern B somewhere else that they go absolutely apeshit over.
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:32 (three years ago) link
xp: my favorite WW84 reaction was from a singing colleague who said "why did it turn into the Cats movie at the end"
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:33 (three years ago) link
the Cats movie is better
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:35 (three years ago) link
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, March 25, 2021 11:32 AM (thirty-five seconds ago)
I agree with this, and I didn't intend "formula" to serve as a criticism in and of itself. It's simply that 23 variations on pattern A might make pattern B look wildly unique in contrast.
― rob, Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:36 (three years ago) link
ugh stop making ww84 sound amazing xxp
thank you simon for confirming cats is better
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:36 (three years ago) link
Cats is truly deranged. It drove multiple audience members to either walk out early or descend into gibbering madness. Amazing viewing experience.
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:38 (three years ago) link
At one point a very drunk guy stood up and yelled "OK BUT WHAT'S A GENITAL CAT????"
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:39 (three years ago) link
I mean, really, how often watching an MCU movie did you experience shock or surprise? did you even want to?
The first half of WandaVision was filled with surprise, which, yes, I wanted; I think for someone like me the reason the back half was disappointing is that it relaxed into something more like other MCU content, and this disappointment interferes with my ability to judge it by what turned out to be its own standards.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:39 (three years ago) link
I mean this was the post I was responding to:
Santa's making a list of all you 'hey, turns out Snyder's got the sauce!' folks for the next time y'all start pulling knives out for Marvel's flicks. I'm just sayin'.― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, March 24, 2021 8:11 PM (yesterday)
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Wednesday, March 24, 2021 8:11 PM (yesterday)
This implicitly assumes Marvel's next movie(s) will continue down a well-worn path, doesn't it? Why else assume that criticism of imaginary Marvel movies to come will inevitably be hypocritical compared to praise for Snyder?
― rob, Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link
My MCU-loving teen was enthusiastic about WW84, agreed it was kind of over the top but basically liked it, has zero interest in watching the long Justice League, not sure what that means
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:40 (three years ago) link
WW84 is amazing in several ways that are very, very terrible
the most is probably how Kristin Wiig's Barbara Minerva was a self-serious reinterpretation of Michelle Pfeiffer's Selena Kyle
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:41 (three years ago) link
It is also not really a strawman to say that some ppl get embarrassingly defensive whenever someone dares criticise the mcu, and we don’t exactly have to go far to find exhibits A through Z around here
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:42 (three years ago) link
The claim that Buffy was not good seems insupportable to me. The claim that the first Avengers movie was not good is more defensible; I liked it at the time but in retrospect it feels like that one movie locked the franchise into a box it has only occasionally peeked out of (e.g. in the excellent Thor: Ragnarok) and maybe that was foreseeable, I dunno.
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:42 (three years ago) link
This implicitly assumes Marvel's next movie(s) will continue down a well-worn path, doesn't it?
No? Not unless that path is "I think they're good"?
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:42 (three years ago) link
Buffy was 100% smoke and mirrors and the whole thing was exactly this "I'm making a visual comic book" thing that Marvel and DC have done with their movies, only more glib. The only storyline I remember feeling actual interest in when I watched it was Dark Willow.
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:45 (three years ago) link
xpOk, on second thought, you're right that isn't a fair reading.
― rob, Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:47 (three years ago) link
lol I’ve definitely found one xps
― jammy mcnullity (wins), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:48 (three years ago) link
Buffy had a lot of valuable and creative stuff that a lot of people, not just Whedon, deserve credit for, but I'm not uh exactly in a rush to revisit.
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link
it's no doubt a popular strawman 'round these parts but when/if you come across an ILXor who's all 'you SHALL NOT criticize my beloved MCU!!!' be sure and let me know. Some guy had a multi-post freakout at the start of the MCU: classic or dud 2 thread at the very idea of anyone answering the thread topic iirc.
― armoured van, Holden (sic), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link
to be clear, I didn't mind Buffy all that much even though it was mostly Not My Thing until people started trying to push that fucking terrible musical episode on me
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:52 (three years ago) link
lol yeah, literally the first response to the thread is OL coming in with this exact brand of not-mad zany sarcasm because he was pre-emptively madd that ppl might vote dud
― jammy mcnullity (wins), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:54 (three years ago) link
at this point, I'm in this thread mostly to trick Brad into watching WW84
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:56 (three years ago) link
Criticizing any of these movies is fine and necessary, it's the bad faith that people put behind them that grates.
Like the "slurry-like consistency" comment rubs me wrong, because the insinuation with that choice of words is, "yup, those rubes will slurp up anything the MCU slops down in front of them".
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 March 2021 15:57 (three years ago) link
― Nhex, Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:00 (three years ago) link
Some guy had a multi-post freakout at the start of the MCU: classic or dud 2 thread at the very idea of anyone answering the thread topic iirc.
― You Can't Have the Woogie Without a Little Boogie (Old Lunch), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:03 (three years ago) link
I think of “slurry-like consistency” as applying to the incoherent pixelated look of the animated final-boss battles in half+ of the ones I’ve seen
― armoured van, Holden (sic), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:04 (three years ago) link
(not u Peyton bb)
― armoured van, Holden (sic), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:05 (three years ago) link
Somehow the consistency of the MCU has been twisted into a sort of strange criticism. "Yeah, the casting and acting and effects and stories are pretty reliably good, and they're mostly very entertaining, but ... they're all the same! Why don't they coat everything in digital charcoal and throw in more erratic storytelling and a bunch of slo-mo and ramping for a change? Sure, it may be indulgent and tough to endure, but at least it has personality." Which, tbf, is indeed probably preferable to dreck like WW84, which is like the worst traits of the MCU and DCU combined but otherwise completely bereft of *any* real distinction.
Fwiw, for comparison's sake "Endgame" (minus credits) runs I think a little more than a full hour shorter than this one does. But apparently this one breaks things up into chapters, so suck it, Scorsese, Snyder Cut is all but *designed* to be paused at home while you go off to make popcorn and check your email.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:12 (three years ago) link
I don't think the fight scenes in the MCU movies are at all incoherent, not in a world that also contains a successful Transformers franchise.
― Dana Jel Pey (DJP), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:13 (three years ago) link
Seriously. Those movies are like watching a lunatic try to solve the world's biggest CGI Rubik's cube.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:16 (three years ago) link
mean there are so many valid criticisms of the MCU - the military shilling, the sometimes incomprehensible action sequences, the overreliance on lazy "I know that reference!" easter egg zings, shoehorning in continuity in ways that slow down the films
yes
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:18 (three years ago) link
I don't find MCU action direction incoherent, just perfunctory and unmemorable
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:19 (three years ago) link
(action direction not Snyder's strong suit either tbh)
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:20 (three years ago) link
I only saw the first Transformers and the scene from whichever later one they destroyed Chicago, those definitely set the standard for completely incomprehensible action sequences. Just blurs of terrible CGI color. Still mystified by how successful that franchise became.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:22 (three years ago) link
― intern at pepe le pew research (Simon H.), Thursday, March 25, 2021 9:20 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
by direct comparison it's leagues better imo
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:25 (three years ago) link
i mean as with massive cgi superhero battles u gotta love ur grays and oranges
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 25 March 2021 16:27 (three years ago) link