Beware the Ides of March -- U.S. Politics March 2021

SMEs can be provided with relief to cushion for the increase in wages.

They already have that relief, a multi-year phase in. Paying businesses directly to 'cushion' their labor costs and hoping they pass it on is just socializing risk and privatizing profit once more - and immediately falls prey to evasion by large businesses who want to get that free money.

AT&T needs a multi-year phase in? Ok.

Yes, that's what I said, exactly.

Well if small businesses need a multi-year phase in, I would argue some corporations don't. Hence, there's a difference of treatment between SMEs and large corporations/businesses.

I'm just going to repeat what I keep on repeating: nothing less than $15 is acceptable, and even that amount is much too low. $20 should be the figure that we should be fighting over, as has been mentioned numerous times.

Nothing that any sMaLl bUsInEsS oWnERs say changes that, nothing that anyone says changes that.

If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage, then you and your business can get fucked. Period.

What if you can't afford your workers a living wage because overall workers aren't paid enough to buy enough of your services/products?

volume =! margin

There are about 10 posts answering that particular concern-troll in the last 50 posts.

The way to avoid this exact scenario was to flip at least 1-2 more Senate seats in November. We didn't, so here we are.

Want to lessen Manchin/Sinema's power? Flip more seats.https://t.co/RBZCw4GCNi

— Charles #GetCovered-ba (@charles_gaba) March 5, 2021

Feel like now is not the right time to play the "give us money so we can have a majority so good things can happen" card, since they have a majority.

I worked in an organic grocery store in tourist town of ~3600 people, and the starting wage was $10/hr, with 50cent increases every 6 months. It was back-breaking work.

The owners owned four houses, including one in a *different* tourist town across the Oregon border, and balked and retaliated against anyone who asked for a raise. Yet they were always wondering why none of the younger employees stuck around...

Small business owners who say shit like this are essentially telling their workers, "get fucked so we can live a middle class (or upper middle-class) existence."

Fuck those people and anyone defending them.

Sure, and some other businesses, providing essential services to poor neighbourhoods for example, are struggling to survive even with artificially low wages. If your answer to that is: they deserve to close. Well, I don't know, it just adds poverty in the end, it just seems cruel to me. I don't see why addressing complexities across a wide spectrum of economic situations is always seen as such a bad thing by americans, even on the left, especially that it works very well elsewhere on the continent.

Sure, and some other businesses, providing essential services to poor neighbourhoods for example, are struggling to survive even with artificially low wages.

Such as?

and I'm not even proposing to reduce the minimum wage of 15$, agreed with Table that 15$ is the absolute bare minimum. I just think that some different realities need to be dealt differently.

Such as?

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Friday, March 5, 2021 5:56 PM (twenty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Independent grocery stores. Restaurants.

Ah, yes, "poor neighborhoods" widely known for being hubs of independent grocery stores.

Perhaps Americans are averse to your stances because your "wide spectrum of economic situations" are pulled directly from your ass to justify half measures and further subsidies of downtrodden classes like "grocery store owners."

If you're talking about bodegas, corner stores, and delis, which are large parts of the food infrastructure of poorer neighborhoods in the US, then I'd like to let you know that selling some crappy vege, blunt wraps, and snack food isn't providing an essential service. If anything, poor neighborhoods need more actual grocery stores, whether they're chains or not.

(response to VHS, obv)

is there data to suggest mandatory wage increases actually cause small businesses to close or is it a chamber of commerce et al. talking point

Milo, I really hope you find meaning in your antagonism because from here it looks sad.

The only difference is that I don't see a problem with subsidies for struggling SMEs, something that shouldn't be very controversial within leftist circles, and I that don't understand why there should be a phase-in for larger corporations to implement 15$ minimum wage.

Yes yes completely uncontroversial in leftist circles to (further) subsidize the literal petite bourgeoisie, how could anyone disagree?

The phase-in over the course of years is the "relief to cushion" you requested.

The minimum wage went up in Seattle and until covid people couldn’t stop falling over themselves to open restaurants. A local bagel shop was offering $250 gift cards to anyone making a successful referral.

There was a longer phase in for “small” businesses, with under 500 employees worldwide, but as of this year small employers get a discount of $1.69 for tipped employees, everyone else the minimum is $16.69, a rate which is now indexed to the local CPI-W

Eventually the tip exemption for small employers will go away too.

Yes yes completely uncontroversial in leftist circles to (further) subsidize the literal petite bourgeoisie, how could anyone disagree?

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Friday, March 5, 2021 6:14 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

If the point is to double the minimum wage of the worker, what could possibly be the problem?

if we truly want to help the small biz owner, aka the backbone of the economy, the distillation of the America dream, then clearly we should be trying to lower the minimum wage

they're struggling will, STRUGGLING

might only buy a new Ski-Doo this year instead of a pair

VHS do you own a small business, like a boutique slaughterhouse or something

We've already cut billions of dollars in checks over the last year to small businesses (via PPP grants) rather than sending that money directly to workers.

(I say grants because you have to fuck up pretty good as a small business with employees to not get the loans forgiven)

No, I am vegetarian thanks, but I worked for some that had to close despite paying minimum wage (around 10$ CAD at the time) leaving owners with insurmontable amount of debt and in one case having to move out of the city because of rent increase, but surely every business owner is evil because some socialist LARPers can't move on from Marx or something.

VHS, in all seriousness, why should people who've started small business get subsides to *pay their workers a living wage*? Shouldn't they be paying their workers a living wage already? If they're not, couldn't one consider them class enemies and not worthy of respect or consideration?

If I was going to take VHS seriously, I'd point out the fundamental difference in categories - no one is forced to be a small business owner, everyone is forced to work to survive. The former, if they're struggling, have made a choice to enter into that struggle because of the potential benefit. As a society, we are not compelled to ensure their risk taking pays dividends.

They had to move out of the city?! God help them.

If only their workers had been more willing to make sacrifices for their benefit.

Sorry, *could* one consider them...

etc.

VHS, in all seriousness, why should people who've started small business get subsides to *pay their workers a living wage*? Shouldn't they be paying their workers a living wage already? If they're not, couldn't one consider them class enemies and not worthy of respect or consideration?

― it's like edging for your mind (the table is the table), Friday, March 5, 2021 6:41 PM (twenty-six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

If small business were on the same level playing field as larger corporations, I would agree, but they aren't. I don't think they can be faulted, at least not nearly as much, for people generally having a dwindling purchasing power, for not being to sustain the price predatorial commercial property owners fix, for not being given the opportunity to adapt to technological changes, etc. If the government, and there's enough money in the US to do, can chime to cover the difference between 7.5 and 15$ to help to business continue to survive, I see a win for everyone involved.

I don't think anyone is saying that there aren't ANY small businesses anywhere in existence that wouldn't be "harmed" (for some value of harm) by a raised minimum wage. Those individual cases just aren't enough to justify keeping 50 million people in poverty. I mean I don't know what to tell you.

The first thing I would want to know would be: Are the business owners/founders in a particular case in a different social class than their employees? Do they live a noticeably different lifestyle? Because if so, there's a possibility of balancing the scales differently.

I mean YES, of course, this is completely a false scarcity argument because if we had M4A/socialized medicine and a better support system then everyone's costs potentially go down and there is relief in other places.

Socialized risk, privatized profit, yes.

If the state is already going to be paying the wages, why not just open up state-owned grocery stores? Why line the pockets of someone already well-off enough to own a grocery store?

that was an xp

If the point is to double the minimum wage of the worker, what could possibly be the problem?

we have asked the workers. they say that subsidizing the petite bourgeoisie in any way is too big a sacrifice, even if it doubles their wages.

If the state is already going to be paying the wages, why not just open up state-owned grocery stores? Why line the pockets of someone already well-off enough to own a grocery store?

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Friday, March 5, 2021 6:52 PM (0 seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

You realize private profit is taxable? Both are viable solutions. Liquor in Quebec is only sold in government mandated stores and workers are paid higher than minimum wage. There is also wage help for certains industry at risk, works very well. The smart thing would be to use the entire array of solutions that government can offer to help citizens and buffer against the worse of the market.

You realize private profit is taxable?

It's never taxable 100% - so the risk remains social and the profit private.

Both are viable solutions

You only suggested one, though - and then said it should be uncontroversial for "leftist."

I don't know about you, but I don't see many risks associated with giving a minimum wage of 15$ to workers.

You've bumbled in here offering up a convoluted fantasy to protect the dignity (and profit) of these many supposedly struggling small businesses that you're very non-specific about, because a four-year phase-in wasn't enough "relief to cushion" for a wage floor that has been frozen for more than a decade and losing value for multiple decades, because you once worked for a small business that had to move.

many risks associated with giving a minimum wage of 15$ to workers.

You cannot be this stupid.

VHS, in your view are there any other costs of doing business that should be addressed by subsidy, rather than accounted for in the spreadsheets of the business owner? Like, if an owner claims "the rising electric bill will put me out of business," or "bringing this kitchen up to code will put me out of business," or "the rising rent will put me out of business," is the government on the hook for those things too, or is it only the cost of labor that goes in this category?

I mention rent since in your example above that was a real factor in a business decision, and something we know shutters businesses all the time. Whereas, as others have pointed out, there is not exactly robust evidence that raising the minimum wage spells doom for the entrepreneur.

So, and I ask this seriously, if President Sanders or Warren had gotten the nomination, beaten Trump, and reached this impasse, would we have been in a different situation? I don't envisage a scenario in which my preferred candidates would've converted a recalcitrant Sinema or Manchin withou pork.