Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

the 80s and '00s "sitcom themes" are very definitely making specific musical and visual references to specific sitcoms of the referenced eras.

most of the reaction is to its narrative function, not to the melody

Vs

On the other hand, isn't most of the hype about the remix?

Remixes not notably about narrative function.

As I said, I'm not familiar enough with the contents of the Maximoff Blockbuster Suitcase to recognise they're straight lifts from them but this is still different as The Munsters wasn't in there (that I could see, happy to be corrected). I suppose possibly the answer is the other themes are created by Wanda and this by Agatha so <shrugs>. What do I know.

what is going on here??

I have not had the same experience as Andrew re: the alleged "remix" (one of several trap bootlegs afaik?), cf

btw I can't get that Agatha theme song out of my head

― if you meh them, shut up (Neanderthal), Saturday, February 20, 2021 3:00 PM (one week ago)

knowing that it's her actually singing it just makes that song even more delightful

― Nhex, Sunday, February 21, 2021 5:58 AM (one week ago)

if we assume that the show's meta-asides are to be taken as messages from a reliable narrator (as they have so far wrt theme lyrics, visual asides suggesting not all is as it seems), Agatha is described in the song as insidious, perfidious and "messing up everything." She also admits to killing a dog with Wicked Witch of the West flair

― That's not really my scene (I'm 41) (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, February 23, 2021 2:18 AM (five days ago)

that fucking agatha song has been stuck in my head constantly

― tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Tuesday, February 23, 2021 6:01 AM (five days ago)

Meantime, new interview with Anderson-Lopez/Lopez

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/arts/television/wandavision-agatha-all-along.html

("Meet" probably the most famous songwriting duo on Broadway/at Disney etc? Change that headline.)

Honestly this week's episode was among other things just an amazing tonal shift after having said song in my head off and on throughout the week.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:27 AM (yesterday)

Agatha definitely an interesting villain(?) as the intro is definitely... open to some kind of interpretation. Glad they went this route (maybe?) rather than keeping her as evil as the end of the song implied. Also, did they use some funky de-aging tech or was it just incredible makeup for her flashback?

― Nhex, Saturday, February 27, 2021 10:59 AM (yesterday)

yeah sorry i just don't get this whole latest back and forth about the agatha song, and the 'hype', and some remix somewhere, and that it sounds like the munsters... what's the bone of contention exactly?

“people like something but still wanna complain about it.”

- ILX

aldo didn’t know that the other sitcom themes sounded like sitcom themes*, so he’s latched on to Agatha sounding like one he knows, and is thus fixating on the melody being pastiched, rather than on it being a fun way to do a plot reveal

* 100% fair obv

other ppl are enjoying being earwormed by the catchy fun joke that delivered a narrative twist. aldo is confused bcz he just thinks of The Munsters if he plays the tune in his head, and thinks he must be missing something, so asked if he’s missing something

no big deal in any direction rly

lol okay

i do like that the episode is called 'breaking the fourth wall' and there is this unsettling slippage about who, in fact, the audience is for agatha's theme/montage. it's us, mainly, and serves its delicious reveal function to us, but does wanda 'see' it, too? no, i think?

'fietro' = a+

this whole episode was amazing imo. the moment we see vision being remade in the 50s world, and he looks at wanda, and they just assume their roles, and then we see the sets and the lights.. ahhh directly into my veins plz

But this is different from them, this is a show not directly referenced by the visuals

again, not knowing what Munsters Today is, but: the Agatha All Along titles show a 1960s b&w supernatural sitcom transplanted to whenever the present day is. sooooo??

aldo didn’t know that the other sitcom themes sounded like sitcom themes*, so he’s latched on to Agatha sounding like one he knows, and is thus fixating on the melody being pastiched, rather than on it being a fun way to do a plot reveal

* 100% fair obv

aldo makes minor point about song which is blowing up on social media in the real world sounding like something else and so confused by why it's so popular, sic-signal activated, above strawman erroneously deployed.

My point is entirely about earworming beyond the narrative of the show, and why this. But I suppose why *anything* trends on social media.

(I could have guessed the themes used for the sitcoms were direct references and lifts from the things they're directly parodying.)

That particular one went viral because it’s the culmination of the musical theme that has been building throughout all of the other themes, it’s tied to a massive plot point, and it’s bad ass.

Re: the first point, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIS8P6plRvM

Did anyone else post that music analysis clip, where it's pointed out that they incorporated the same three or four note motif into all the different theme songs? And, just to make it more fun, it's built around a tritone interval, aka "The Devil's Interval?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIS8P6plRvM

Holy shit! Twins!

it sounded like it fitted so well because they'd shared the theme with other score writers and they had left clues to it in the rest of the soundtrack.

I pointed that out earlier but it was more fun to imply I'm televisually illiterate.

STEP AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD, ME

it was aldo, all along!

https://img.particlenews.com/img/id/3VKol8_0YjApx1Y00?type=webp_512x288

re: music theory, it’s a kind of major tritone sound found in the lydian mode, which is also prominently used in the theme song for the longest running sitcom of all time

the siiimp sooons

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/FlandersDevil.png

who’s that goat-legged fellow? i like the cut of his jib

Man this is just making me wish one of the opening credit parodies was an animated Simpsons riff! They have the rights to it all too!

If they hadn’t skipped from Family Ties to Malcolm in the Middle, they could have put The Simpsons in that slot.

On a related note, someone on Twitter asked “what sitcoms would you find refuge in if you were Wanda” and the first one that came to mind was Good Times, which feels like a great way of showing how even something as “universal” as using sitcoms to escape reality isn’t universal

When I saw this I threw my typewriter out the window. You just can't touch this 😭 pic.twitter.com/ihvcFXjtfd

— ben "slenderben" flores (@limitlessjest) February 28, 2021

it's the culmination of the musical theme that has been building throughout all of the other themes

The Lopez-Andersons also talk about this in the interview that Ned posted.

(flip that name & reverse it, lol)

I thought for sure I saw a promotional image that showed Wanda sitting in what appeared to be the Conners' kitchen so I was disappointed that that never happened.

I could totally imagine finding comfort in something like, say, "What's Happening," which I watched the hell out of, or "Laverne & Shirley"/"Happy Days" (which itself was already retro comfort food), but based on the other garbage I watched as a kid I would end up in something like "Cheers," "MASH," "Dukes of Hazzard," "A-Team" or "Knight Rider," shows I'd probably want to avoid living in for a myriad of reasons.

Wanda killed Roseanne

We've been watching "Maude" lately -- is there a thread to discuss that? Something for old sitcoms? It's pretty great; I wasn't familiar with most of those old Norman Lear shows.

On a related note, someone on Twitter asked “what sitcoms would you find refuge in if you were Wanda” and the first one that came to mind was Good Times, which feels like a great way of showing how even something as “universal” as using sitcoms to escape reality isn’t universal

Pretty much. Even with the in-universe reality I was thinking "I dunno, Dad Maximoff, looks like you left a few out there." Not that there was any way in the universe they were going to be able to riff on The Cosby Show, but Good Times definitely came to mind, Family Matters as well. I kinda loved the Living Single mockups I was seeing on Twitter.

Oh, yeah, "Cosby Show" would be in the mix. (And guess what: I've never seen "Roseanne"!)

...Stop.

No, literally stop what you're doing right now and go watch Roseanne. The first five seasons are about as good as tv gets.

I...how is that even possible?!?

At least I know who and what Roseanne is, lol!

lol, I will grant you that.

Allo Allo

Allo Allo - classic or dud?

Notably, Roseanne had an entire season that turned out to be a dream/fantasy/coping mechanism.

sic-signal activated... more fun to imply I'm televisually illiterate.

I repeatedly noted that I also do not know every theme or show being referenced, and that your questions were entirely reasonable

Looking back I’m kinda bummed they couldn’t have found room for an episode centered around “The Nanny.” The theme song and opening is classic.

She’d been finding new happiness on a super-team
‘Til a robot killed her husband in one of those crushing scenes
What was she to do, where was she to go, she was just left to wanderrrr

So in her car to Westview, the foundation was poured
She was there to start a family but her heart had been torn
She had grief
Had despair
She was there
That’s how she made the hex

hm. well! So!

I'm not totally sold on the sudden shift of style here? Considering the "dark things lurking within the candy coating" approach we've been presented with thus far on the inside of the hex and the Iron Giant-esque "Scooby-Doo gang wrests control of the case from the uncaring government agency" story on the outside, this episode may have pulled a little too far outside of its lane for me to stay suspended in disbelief. Hahn (who has been a mostly understated joy until now) got backed into a corner with Agatha's dialogue and ended up sounding like a didactic Pinhead from Hellraiser, leading Wanda from set to set in an attempt to crack her egg. Everything got very serious, very melodramatic, very SURPRISE REVEAL! PLOT TWIST! SUDDEN SHOCKING RELATIONSHIP POINT! END ON THE POPULAR NAME OF THE CHARACTER WHICH HAS NEVER! BEEN! USED! UNTIL NOW!!! Before it began, this was how i thought the whole series was gonna be like and I've been pleased we've mostly found ways around the obvious. Until now. Which suggests the producer are gonna fall back on heavy dark expository when they need to move the rock forward instead of playing by the rules they established and that's a little disappointing.

As far as the level of melodrama in both action and script, I think that's really a question of where you're at as a viewer? I find the "love is never having to say you're sorry" over-intentionally humanizing moments of the MCU more than a little hamhanded and too simplistic, sadistic and freudian (oh, so the reason she's created a simulated sitcom asylum is because her mother and father were killed by a bomb when they were watching Dick Van Dyke, say no more, everything makes sense now) for me to feel genuinely touched... but we're all pretty bruised right now so, if it works for you, who am I to judge? On a separate point - and one that likely deserves an essay if one hasn't already been written - given that Kirby/Lee were doing Douglas Sirk-style hypermelodrama romance comics long before they repurposed much of that angst into the Avengers and X-Men should indicate just how baked-in to the formula this glurge is. People have been bitching about too much of it being in the books for over sixty years, why should now be any different?

The television guy in me is frustrated at the lack of cohesion and whiplash between narratives and tone from episode to episode. Another pass or two on the totality of the script might have integrated everything more seamlessly so that we don't have the bad guy's origin showing up near the end of the "film" or have us forced into spending nearly two (well-crafted but probably not necessary) hours in TV Land without a little more guidance as to the parameters of the larger story arc.

The comic book guy in me doesn't appreciate the apparent turn toward the "mad chaos witch" storyline and Wanda as unwitting hysteric being manipulated by impossibly greater power. Yes, it's a plot that dates back to ancient Grecian drama and yes I am sure they'll put a bow on this before the end to show Wanda controlling her power and reclaiming her sense of self and self-control and STRONG WOMEN so that Twitter doesn't eat them alive... but the fact remains that a LOT of Marvel's modern roster of strong female superhero characters in TV/movies/comics (Black Widow, Gamora, Wasp, Jessica Jones, and now Wanda) come out of "abuse as character development" crucibles. I'm not happy to see that trope re-emerge here.

More geekily, White Vision is my least favorite incarnation of the character and, while I'm sure that the impending Vision v Vision action sequence is going to look very good, it's of extremely little interest to me.

BUT! WandaVision has been surprisingly ambitious in what it has been trying to do and how it presents its story and it remains unpredictable and engaging. The production values are super high and the acting and writing are generally better than they have any real reason to be. It continues to navigate the narrow tightrope of not being too much for the comic nerds and not leaving them out of the conversation. I'm still anxious to see the way they tie this up, but - with plenty more of this on the horizon - I am not exactly gonna be sorry to see it go or clamoring for a return to this style. Nonetheless, WV has been an unexpected improvement over past attempt to introduce this universe to episodic long-form visual media for a modern audience. I genuinely want to see what Marvel Studios does after this, which surprises me.

I've also been amused at people confusing bold and spoiler tags on this thread, so thanks for that.

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I agree with the general complaint re: the development/origin of female characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe but leaving out that virtually every hero they’ve introduced has been put through the meat grinder is suspect to me. I think the only one who hasn’t been through some abjectly awful shit as part of their story is Falcon?

Like, the primary way depth is added to all of these characters is by doing evil, shitty to them, whether it’s part of their origin stories or part of how they’re used in the stories. It’s virtually a genre requirement.

I also think that pointing out all of the shit that has happened to this character and exploring her reaction to it is a reasonable hook for a storyline; the show after all is reminding us of what MCU Wanda has gone through already. Honestly, the criticism of Unnecessary Trauma is more apt for how they’re handling Monica, considering that they killed off her mother in order to make her a sympathetic foil for Wanda and the other major character grappling with loss when, in the comics, both of her parents were alive and well throughout most if not all of her Avengers tenure.

oh, so the reason she's created a simulated sitcom asylum is because her mother and father were killed by a bomb when they were watching Dick Van Dyke, say no more, everything makes sense now

I read this more as: watching old sitcoms is how she dealt with trauma from a young age and now as a powered adult she's dealing with trauma by living in an old sitcom.

Old Lunch OTM