SARS

I think you should give me and my country a little bit more credit. Yes the papers are blowing this out of proportion, its knocked the US war off the front prage completely in some papers. I don't think the papers are being antichinese or anti-imigration though, we leave that to the Reform Party.

The local paper says it best there I think.

Kate in PRC Travel Agent role SHOCKAH!

I think my actual problem is the image that some have of people from modern Hong Kong (or Calcutta, or Mexico City for that matter). The people that are flying to 1st World Cities from those places are probably not cavorting with chickens and pigs (and that's not a comment on people who actually Do live in proximity to or work with farm animals). I just feel that the throwaway statements above create prejudices about people based on where they're from (I'm from L.A. and have always had to defend it when traveling). This is definitely Not the same thing as racism. In fact I only brought that word up as a joke on another thread.

The truth is, I think you're all sexist, classist pedophiles.

with good reason. :-D

who (esp. of the more vocal contributors) has actually been to China? Just curious...

hate to say it but it only makes sense that eventually one of these superbugs would incubate and take hold in China - the scary part is that China (via frequent air travel to and from its major cities incl. HK) offers many more vectors for such a disease to take hold. It's an epidemiologist's nightmare.

t's not surprising that stuff is arising in China, though - the proximity of humans, pigs, and chickens makes a ripe breeding ground for transmission and mutation

The stuff about disease vectors and the like I don't find racist at all, but it seems that is what people are taking offense to. When you have a country where almost medieval scales of poverty and overcrowding live cheek by jowl with very modern technology and global travel - you have a problem. It doesn't matter if that place is modern China or India or Victorian London.

People seem to be pointing fingers at where the disease came from and making deregatory statements about China in the process. The same thing happened at the beginning of the AIDS crisis. Who cares if the disease originated in Africa? It doesn't matter. As AIDS demonstrated, and as everyone on this thread has acknowledged, with air travel, these things affect everyone. I think this thread has become a way for people to reinstate the rich-poor, north-south, west-east dichotomy. I think I'm seeing blame -- just as Africa was blamed for AIDS. As everyone realizes, viruses do not respect borders and infect across nationalities. Along with the blame I sense a disdain for countries that are not developed as we are. I've traveled in China and I didn't notice the hellish conditions that people on this thread are implying.

And on anther note:

Not to mention of course the continued hysteria since the sarin gas attack. And it hides the really, really bad teeth of most Japanese people too (no calcium in their diet).

I lived in Japan about a year after the sarin attack and there was no hysteria then, so I find it hard to see how it could be continuing now. As far as I know, that was seen as an isolated incident, and while of course it is troubling, I don't think people wear masks to protect themselves from it, which wouldn't be affective anyway. (They're not gas masks.)

As far as Momus's comment, if it wasn't a parody I have no words for it.

And by the way, I'm not calling anyone on this thread a racist. I wouldn't presume to make that kind of judgment. As I explained elsewhere, my 'delete racist thread' statement was an attempt at humor. I just find some of the statements above offensive.

I've been to Hong Kong, and there are plenty of parts of it - esp. in the New Territories - that resemble any other "peasant" village in any place in the rest of the world (that includes West Virginia! except I didn't see so many cars on cinderblocks in front yards, or front yards for that matter). The only modern, industrialized parts of the city that I can remember were in Kowloon and the parts (but not all) of the main island. We stayed with friends of my mom in a super-nice and expensive townhouse community near the American high school, outside the "Central" part of the main island (where most of the biz stuff is); in the bay beneath it there was an isolated fishing village with no roads leading to it.

The part where I brought up my (soon to be ex) roommate's concern were his concerns, not mine.

Actually, it's Monaco (really!). Bangladesh is it for non-"microcountries" according to a page on about.com

However, the coastal cities of China are indeed incredibly densely populated (as is Taipei).

I have been to China and Taiwan a few times and I can report never having seen a live chicken or pig, let alone had 'intimate' contact with one, Dan. Vast tracts of Shanghai, Hong Kong and other Chinese cities are as clean/hygenic/properous/safe etc.. as any city in the west. I've been to countries and cities that on the surface seem much more likely to be "breeding grounds for disease." It's not something that can automatically be assumed simply because of density or perceived hygeine etc.

And Dyson, although you might call it being overly PC, some of those comments do call to some minds things like "yellow horde", "they all look the same" etc.

(for the record, I think the "city" parts of HK are much cleaner than NYC - esp. the subways.)

I fucking hate the liberal shit where everyone is "poor in goods, but rich in spirit" and we watch National Geographic specials about their lovely culture and how they sing and dance and love and etc. because well yeah, that's just the way the human spirit is -- it perseveres, but meanwhile hello! let's talk about living in miserable hovels and the growing lack of health services and soforth because they're what needs to be dealt with. I thought, by the way, it was well-known epidemiological fact that Asia was historically one of the key centers for the development and outbreak of new diseases.

I actually dunno about the chickens pigs people in proximity thing -- my intuition tells me that most rural families can't afford to keep any significant livestock and that those who can don't need to live next to them, so its a small layer this would apply to. That said, in Malaysia I've seen plenty of households which keep a few chickens around. Though, again, I doubt if its the animal sitch as much as the human density and health services problem which tends towards the fermentation of new nasty bugs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with framing your statement as such. I don't think there's anything wrong with a serious, balanced analysis of what conditions may lead to disease. I just found those types of comments I highlighted to be lacking in that regard.

A troubling issue that hasn't yet been brought up is that the Chinese powers are reluctant to inform people both inside and outside the country as to the extent of the problem.

If that doesn't work try pasting the following url
into a browser:

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1680078

However, there are also discouraging signs that the denial of the SARS threat will continue long (as it did (does?) for AIDS and BSE). NHK news last night focussed on the problems in Hong Kong. The only Japan related SARS item is that most tour companies have cancelled package tours to hotspots.

There is plenty of daily traffic to/from all of the SARS hotspots.
And probably not as much checking as there should be. A colleague who returned last week from a trip Vietnam and Singapore was not even questioned. Another one returning from Hong Kong was not checked or questioned.

If SARS gets into the busy commuter trains in Osaka and Tokyo, there will be a massive problem.

???

Cities provide offer excellent opportunities for enterprising young viruses.

The frightening thing about this SARS is the degree to which it seems to be contagious. That combined with it's obvious nastiness
(though I agree that one can blow a 5% mortality rate out of proportion).

I was surprised by this thread because it hadn't crossed my mind that anti-Asian sentiment over SARS would be much of an issue. I'm not certain there's really been any on this thread, but I was sort of surprised to see conversation head in the direction of public health conditions in China.

Having been to Thailand, China, Hong Kong, Macau, KL, Manilla, Singapore, and Hanoi (among other places in se asia) I feel fairly qualified to say that I've seen some fantastic skylines etc. but also more widespread and nasty poverty than in the U.S., and generally gotten the feeling that there's a thing layer of "modern" over generally 18th century living conditions (at best), or perhaps that the two are mixed together pretty thoroughly even at the top layers of society.

All this "we have caught up with the west and are the asian TIGERS of INDUSTRY and COMMERCE hello MODERNITY we come to TRUMPET OUR ADVANCEMENT to the world" bullshit I thought died a hard & ugly death in '97.

Anyone can make a relatively small patch of pretty looking clean glass & mirrors (or even, with the right business enviornment a whole island like Singapore) but we're talking places where basic infrastructure like y'know paved roads is in short supply for the most part.

hstencil captured my sense of Hong Kong fairly well, at least in part. If you stick to the back of the island, the waterfront, and the top its fancy as all fuck but even in the compressed blocks that make up the front of the main island there's plenty of miserable living conditions to be found. And like he said, once you start to go inland...