Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

IIRC, in the comics Irina and Oleg Maximoff were Wanda and Pietro's adoptive parents, whom they thought were their real parents until they found out who those really were. As for who the real parents are, that's more complicated, since their parentage has been reconned more than once. But the best-known story of their parentage is that they are the children of Magneto and her wife Magda. I guess they could something similar to the comics here... I mean, it's not very likely Magneto is gonna be introduced to the MCU in this series, but they could reveal Irina and Oleg weren't their biological parents and introduce the real mother.

Then again, since MCU Wanda and Pietro are not mutants, it would be pretty convoluted to have their dad be a famous mutant and have their powers come from somewhere else than their genes. OTOH they just introduced the X-Men version of Quicksilver, who is a mutant and son of Magneto, so who knows?

If we assume that the simulation is something working independently from Wanda (even though she has some control over it), then the way it deals with outside interference is to assimilate it in the sitcom setting. So the drones become period-appropriate toys, the guy in the hazmat suit becomes a beekeeper, and Monica becomes a character in the show, with her clothes changing to fit that. And the assimilation works on a mental level too, brainwashing the real people to become sitcom personalities.

Sure - I'd say independently from Wanda's consciousness - it's not being depicted that she's aware that a hazmat suit guy is now a bee keeper (though it's far from clear whether he's brainwashed?)

But the 'editing' is something that she's consciously doing, including in parts that aren't in the broadcast or look anything like broadcast (the Beekeeper)

Then why did Agnes in this most recent episode break character and ask to do a retake? Actually, not just that, she specifically asked Wanda if *she* wanted to reverse it and do it again. But then iirc did another "take" without Wanda's doing anyway. Then again, Agnes is clearly external to Wanda's fiction, so I guess that is another reveal to be, er, revealed.

The editing trick is actually a neat way out of this, because we don't always know if what we (as viewers) are seeing is what actually happened or what Wanda wants "us" to see. Like when she made Monica "vanish" and then we see what actually happened later. Or how she keeps the drone out of frame in this most recent episode, but the drone is without a doubt still there in her world, as a drone, iirc. And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

Then there's the matter of the dog (assuming the dog is dead). Who did that? How did it die? Wanda didn't seem to (consciously) create the dog, nor did she seem to kill it.

So many ways this all can go, especially with the drastic expansion of the MCU universe, but to what end, who knows. What scenes have been in trailers that we haven't seen yet? Halloween stuff, with Vision as a janky Vision, Wanda as, er, Scarlet Witch and Agnes as ... a witch?

there's always the possibility that agnes is in fact mephisto - no reason for marvel to be beholden to casting that character as male

Good point! And that ties in with their habit of taking inspiration from past familiar/famous storylines without necessarily sticking exactly to their beats. Like when Red Skull shows up in Endgame but for a split second I think you're supposed to think it's Death, because of the comics, and then it's not.

And for that matter, when she returns the drone to SWORD it's still a drone, too, not a little toy or anything.

It got a little buried but they explained this, saying that they dug out a really old drone from the 80s (that's why the image it send back was lo-res) so it didn't get changed on entry to the FamilyTiesVerse

Yeah, for once I didn't miss that, but I wasn't sure if it was the drone that was old or the camera, since there was a reference to the '80s video quality. Still, that's some weird logic, since it's not really like there would be a drone there at all in fictional '80s-ville. But that kind of hand-waving I can accept.

I meant that Avengers, despite having an "ending," was still toward the beginning of a bigger arc.

Sure, but it still had an ending - unless you're being more incoherent than usual, you're arguing that they might just not have one in WandaVision?

(other examples of stories with endings include Back to the Future, just so you know)

lol I like the idea of being incoherent about a show that's already incoherent by design.

But yeah, I know what an ending is. Star Wars had an ending. The Matrix had an ending. Fellowship of the Ring had an ending. Back to the Future, etc. And so on. But clearly all these movies had more story to tell, and are connected and serialized to a degree that, say, the Toy Story series or Raiders of the Lost Ark is not. Anyway, sure, I predict that WandaVision, while not concluding mid-sentence or something, may not have an actual everything-tied-up ending, and that despite being a limited series (reportedly) it may conclude with lots of stuff unanswered (or characters unexplained, maybe) that will then get addressed in future movies. That's my guess.

Another thought I had this morning, sort of bouncing off the "maybe Agnes is other villain" idea ... maybe the Wanda we saw face down SWORD, or for that matter the Wanda that supposedly stole the remains of Vision in the real world, is not Wanda. We've officially got the multiverse thing going on now, for one, with multiple versions of her redacted and (again reportedly) multiple versions of Spider-man showing up in the next movie. But we're also making some assumptions based on what the show has smartly showed us or not showed us so far. So maybe Wanda in the show is the Wanda we know, and she is indeed trapped there (for some reason) and maybe able to control some stuff and push back against some impositions but ultimately is along for the ride like everyone else. And the Wanda that brought back the drone or stole Vision is either a second/different Wanda or someone pretending to be her.

Also Josh was only saying that Thanos smirking wordlessly happened in the end credits of a movie which he had not previously appeared in, not that the movie had not ended.

He was saying it in the context that since 'this series is supposedly a limited one-off, the show is actually under no pressure to introduce a clear villain, or even wrap things up. It can serve as a bridge. It may very well end with Dr. Strange showing up and saying "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads." And then "the adventure continues in Dr. Strange 2" or whatever.' - iirc you were the person who tried to disabuse him of the idea that there were comic book series that worked like this?

Sigh. I was just saying that The Avengers, at the very very end of the credits of a movie that was "over," suddenly introduced a new villain that the vast majority of everyone knew nothing about, and then parceled out minimal further information about said villain until said villain became the driving force and focus of the entire series.

forecasting this show's direction at this point is a fool's game imo; they have loaded it with intentional red herrings and have multiple continuities to work with. clearly the lead sword guy has a hidden agenda. yes the "scarlet witch? never heard of it" bit is leading somewhere. Likely there's another baddie lurking under the surface and THING WE DON'T YET KNOW. All these ideas are valid! Some would play out better than others! I'm content waiting to see how shit plays out.

I am also gratified that we're half in/half out of Wanda's world and wish they could've built a structure that supported that from episode one. Still watching this on day of release though so clearly i'm enjoying it!

just want to pop in and say i love wandavision and think it's pretty wild that this very strange show is getting the living fuck marketed out of it

lol at some interview with feige linked upthread where he says 'if you know nothing of the MCU and just like old dick van dyke episodes you won't miss anything'.. now... i know little to nothing about the MCU and whoa boy i found the shift to 'normal' reality quite difficult to follow

like, the first couple of episodes would have definitely lost my kids - and the next couple lost me - but i enjoy this actually, that they are not dialling down the difficulty for anyone

ultimately the pleasure for me in this is the same sort of pleasure as reading edgar allen poe or henry james ghost stories - you've got an impossible, supernatural reality created by a crisis of the human psyche which is the subject of rational inquiry by official forces - this collision seems to just be an endless well of narrative possibility

i also feel like this show has massive racial undertones and it's difficult to tell whether or not the creators are aware of them

i.e. there are black people living in small-town 1950s America who appear to enjoy the same rights, privileges and respect as the white people there. yes this is a sitcom, not real life, but sitcoms didn't have Black people in these positions either. so it's a little bit like racial justice has been retconned into the MCU! which is.. super weird!

- however there's another guy with burgundy and blue skin who hides that skin every time he goes outside or sees someone besides his wife. He pretends he's white, which equates as human. At home is the only place he can really be himself.

- this family is different from everyone else and they have to literally hide their light for fear of some unspecified repercussion.

- good fences make good neighbors - and Wanda and Vision's Black neighbor has somehow used his hedge trimmer to slice through the wall dividing their property. I found this detail particularly nightmarish - something weird/threatening/impossible about it that felt the most like a David Lynch movie than anything else in the show

Booming post

i believe they are aware of these things - one of the reasons Monica Rambeau is a major character in this, and iirc she doesn't even appear in the '50s episode. this show will be content to stay attached to metaphor rather than address these things directly, is my guess

She's in one of the black and white episodes, as is Herb - both fully integrated into the social life of the town

oh right - she gets zapped into the town before Jimmy Woo and Darcy show up, at which point "Episode 1" starts

actually, wait what am I doing in this thread? it's Friday. must... avoid.. spoilers and social media

Does Monica appear in the background of the first episode?

The nerdo dry-wit science girl spots her on her TV in a non-speaking part but i can’t remember if that was from the first ep or not

Right but I don't remember that scene from the first episode at all

no. supposedly her entrance into the anomaly was shortly before the second episode. and then she appears in that episode

she was def not in the first.

"what happened to your accent?" "what happened to YOURS?" made me LOL in this week's ep

The scene that Darcy shows her in wasn't shown in one of "our" episodes - similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

i did not expect that they would pull out that suit and hair
i have many thoughts but should wait for more to watch i guess

That was a pitch perfect rendition of Malcolm in the Middle, including the TMBG-esque incidental music!

Yes!!!!

I thought this episode was getting a little too meta for me without necessarily advancing the story forward. Did make it wider, though! I like how more and more keeps happening and yet there really is still no definitive answer as to who/what/why and especially how. Agnes most confusing to me, maybe. Was she just a red herring all along? What happened to ... Dottie? How does Vision (sort of) know what's going on (he seems like the world's slowest investigator), and what's up with Quicksilver's level of awareness? Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed? Lots of stuff going on. Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting? I'm all for shared thoughts, because I really have no idea what's going on or why beyond my loose understanding of the House of M story (which this is kinda of still mostly skirting around and hinting at).

similarly to the way that the Pietro conversation in this week's "previously" doesn't actually happen previously.

oh dangit, I went to make tea and toast during the Previously

they missed one aspect of Malcolm In The Middle* - having crew and stand-ins and so forth visible in the unprotected image

*also we totally skipped the '90s! ripped off

Btw, weirdest thing in this ep might have been Pietro calling something "kick ass" before running away, and then Wanda kind of dramatically repeating "kick ass?" "Kick Ass" the (Marvel based) movie of course starred ... Aaron Taylor-Johnson, who made an appearance in flashback footage, too.

Kick Ass also started Evan Peters. pretty sure that joke was intentional, cos I laughed and talked to my friend about it afterwards.

Yeah it’s not a Marvel property

Or the neighbor dressed as Frankenstein asking Wanda if she wanted anything changed?

I think this is cognate to Agnes, in the previous episode, asking if she should do another take of the scene; in some sense that the people of Westview know they're in a play, they're conscious of it and constrained to abide by their roles. (And we get some information in this episode that suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless; the people far from the action are idling in slow loops or completely still, the kids of the town were left asleep until they were needed for the Halloween scene...)

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

I also thought this was a conspicuously unexplained detail -- Monica says her ride inside the Hex is due in an hour and the other characters seem to know what she means but we don't, right? It stuck out.

I thought Kick Ass was a Marvel comic?

*starred Evan Peters

suggest Wanda's power to run the show isn't limitless

Curious what will happen to her control now that she's apparently expanded her town significantly.

xxp They originally published it, but it’s creator-owned.

The entire point of the line was that it was even more substantially creator-owned than Epic

Agnes most confusing to me, maybe. Was she just a red herring all along?

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

She said in the previous ep she was going to call someone (an astroengineer?) without any more detail on who it was. Lots of chat about a SWORD character, and an out-there theory it's Reed Richards and this is the back door for the FF to join *this* 616.

Pietro seems very much to be acting as Wanda's conscience in this, forcing her to acknowledge the immorality of what she's doing (and, let's face it, I know how invested some are in Mephisto or some other bad guy doing it but the chances of it not being all Wanda diminish with every second that airs). The multiverse aspects of it being the X-Movies Pietro definitely the most interesting aspect and the one that needs telling further.

Thought the "maybe he's a vampire" and Evan Peters mining being a mad axe murderer and other things were definitely a dig at Ryan Murphy and AHS, as is (and this is a bit of a stretch) Pietro not being able to tell completely different looking kids apart which is the opposite of AHS where near identical Murphy fkbois are immediately uniquely identified.

Been thinking about the race theories ^^^, does the latest episode turn Vision into a literal Magical Negro?

thought it was kinda sweet that vision was still clearly wearing his wedding ring when he switched to wearing his full super-suit

I think in depictions of simulations based on an individual's psyche you frequently get white blood cell type guardians that are set to correct anomalies etc and outside forces that bring disease. So could see Agnes and possibly others as being in that role.
Really don't know who was what in the pre-existing town. THough seeing a sui generis version of her in the car would suggest she had some existence outside of the Wanda influence.

Did I catch that Monica hinted against about an engineer ringer she's expecting?

I also thought this was a conspicuously unexplained detail -- Monica says her ride inside the Hex is due in an hour and the other characters seem to know what she means but we don't, right? It stuck out.

isn’t this just whoever she has in mind to create this super-protective vehicle that nerd-girl has designed that will “theoretically” work?

Feel like notions of Mephisto as the big bad are a product of a wishful thinking feedback loop, unless someone can point to something(s) onscreen that back up the theory.

Yeah, who they've mentioned two or three times now, which is some foreshadowing! Funny how in the MCU everyone pretty much gets to where they need to be immediately ... except in this case, lol.

Couple other thoughts. One, I almost felt that when Pietro asked Wanda how she was doing all this stuff, he was almost digging for information, like he really wanted to know *how* so that he (whoever he is, really) could do it, too. Or at least better understand how to exploit Wanda's apparently newfound powers. Two, this episode really double downed (quadruple downed?) on winky language that hints at a couple of potential iconic Big Bads. Again, could be easter eggs or red herrings, but there are multiple references to nightmares, and also a couple more Devil things (Pietro calls Wanda's kids "demon spawn" who can "raise hell," or something like that, which could also just be ironically mean digs at the kids). I agree with Tuomas, though, that introducing the (more or less) Devil to the MCU seems like a big lift for this show to do, which is why I was theorizing that maybe this show *won't* ultimately reveal (and certainly not resolve) a Big Bad, and in fact that story will continue directly in Dr. Strange 2 and/or Spider-Man. We'll see!

More thoughts: the SWORD guy in charge is such a jerk, and has been from the start. Could he be a reverse reveal? That is, often times the guy in charge turns out to be a villain. Could this asshole be getting set up as the opposite? There's been lots of talk of radiation going on, and now Monica is clearly ... mutating. Hmmm. (Doubt it would happen, but I saw people hypothesize that maybe this will be a *reverse* House of M, where the twist is she brings all the mutants back, but I think that would be too much.) Also, re: Agnes, we still haven't met her husband, assuming he even exists, right? Oh, and re: someone else controlling things, it's interesting that all the kids showed up in the episode after Vision noted the absence of kids, almost as if someone (Wanda or probably otherwise) realized the oversight and overcompensated.

Still no idea why this is cycling through TV show eras, let alone chronologically.