Lord of the Rings

^ I’m guessing you’ve read The Last Ringbearer?

Never heard of it til now, thanks!

I’ve often wondered what “the other side of the story” is in LOTR (in life, the bad guys don’t see themselves as bad guys), but my imagination is limited & I need stories fed to me before I can see the possibilities.

But I like how Tolkien feeds us enough of a glimpse into the inner life of Orcs, despite being clearly unsympathetic to them, to get a little wedge in.

Orcs are brought into this world as cockney poor and leave it killed by pure blood royalists

tbf, plenty of orcs are killed by orc on orc violence

This is all very well timed for our orc episode on the podcast, due to drop on Monday.

Was there talk about Bored of The Rings? Crtl F = 0. I read it as a teenager lol. No idea if it stands up to more, ahem, mature tastes.

It didn’t even stand up to immature tastes, but ....

Tom Bombadil chanting “Clean! Clean! Clean for Gene!” Always stuck in my head

Didn't they call Bilbo Dildo? Ivy League minds at work.

Dildo Bugger and his nephew Frito.

Nothing but the lowest of brows!

With Legolam, Gimlet, and Spam Gamgee. The names at least were funny.

Anyway, you wanted it (maybe), you got it. Orcs orcs orcs.

https://www.megaphonic.fm/bythebywater/23

Excellent episode.

No word on whether this book contains recipes for Lembas or stewed coney https://www.amazon.ca/Recipes-World-Tolkien-Inspired-Legends/dp/1645174425

Gandalf making Frodo & Sam get back into their reeking travel clothes & orc-garb after being rescued by the eagles. Come on, man!

Excellent episode.

Thanks! We were very pleased to see this as well in response:

The latest episode of @BytheBywater, "Hella Problematic In So Many Ways", was exactly what I'd hoped (orcs, racism, sexism, Tolkien's idiosyncratic theology, et c.). Lotta deep cuts in there

— Chris Palmer (@fugueish) February 9, 2021

Anyway on a lighter note

when you’re reading the LotR books and in comes Tom Bombadil pic.twitter.com/hf5SGsQBpe

— Tsar Bombadil (@ElSangito) February 7, 2021

omg dead

re: lembas recipe.

here's mine from when i first read LOTR when i was 9; based on empirical evidence. adjust to taste

https://images.ctfassets.net/qifm0zg3y057/Aq2BJbRN4mG1Fdiw4T1Hh/b6d0e60e86f3006066ef3997c9a75fcb/1440-x-960---Crispbread---Cruskits_0000_Crispbread---Cruskits---Original.png
https://s3.pricemestatic.com/Large/Images/RetailerProductImages/StRetailer2363/rp_24788943_0071992190_l.png
https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/30/2020/08/sugar-substitutes-honey-700-350-4211d21.jpg
https://www.naturalnavigator.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/how-to-use-tree-leaves-to-navigate.jpg

I LOVE IT

lol

i havent had cruskits since i was a kid! klassik

Holy shit, are the chapters between the destruction of the ring & the scouring of the shire ever a goddamn snoozefest.

the lembas would need something slightly herby/fragrant though, maybe Greek oregano, or mastic or cinnamon or something.

I just assumed it was Naan that satiated you for like three days

i pictured a cross btw a plain scone & shortbread, never got a sense that it was herbed or fragrant tho? just deeply nourishing

i actually think did add cinnamon for an Exotic Twist

I just assumed it was Naan that satiated you for like three days

same.

they are cocaine beignets, this is canon

https://www.thetradingpost.fr/Files/126939/Img/09/SCAMPIFR.jpg

well, exactly

Andy Capp's Hot Lembas Bread

I can’t remember if you dealt with this in your Bombadil episode, Ned, but what does everyone make of the hint that he might be an equivalent of a wizard from a previous Age, in retirement? (ref: the end of the chapter “Homeward Bound.”)

Hm, I don’t think we think of him in those terms.

I had never thought of it before, but the passage is kinda suggestive, don’t you think?

I dont think wizard tho. Hes referred to as something quite different iirc

Almost elemental- outside the lots and schemes of the other peoples of ME

Is there much to Tolkein's comment that (paraphrasing) 'every story has a red herring; Tom Bombadil is this story's red herring'?

Hes a very minor part to be a red herring

Sauron otoh....

Sauron basically shat himself in his bunker as soon as things looked bad

on my read-through last year with my kids i came away feeling that bombadil was something like the god, or a god, of middle-earth

Ive not read anything other than whats hinted in the books (ie nothing beyond the silmarillion), and from that i think its an open possibility but not quite suggested by the language gandalf is using

Hes something other

He’s overrated, I’ll tell you that for free.

Shocking Bombadilism

He's in the wrong book is what he is

Always tickles me that in a book about wee hobbits having adventures with elves and dwarves Bombadil is where some of you draw a line

Hobbits and elves serve the plot, bombadil is like a beanstalk out of the story

Seems a clear distinction in type to me, tho why ppl would be actively bothered by it is strange maybe

His presence in the book forces the hobbits to almost die twice, making them look unfit for the task. If he hadn't been shoehorned in, because JRR wanted a green man figure in Middle Earth, the story could have been written so they saved themselves both times, giving their characters more depth from the off. Also I think Bombadil plays a flute? Illegal move, basically.

Tbf I haven’t read LOTR since the first George W Bush term, but I just have very strong memories of thinking “this cunt” almost the entire time.

I have theories about him bridging the tweeness of the Shire and the darkness of the not Shire

i like the way a section of the council of elrond is given over to exactly this discussion: "what was he for? is he part of the plot?" and gandalf saying "uh oh NO!"

tolk has a phrase ( which i forget) for elements in the tale without expanded mythos backstory, which he himself says applies to the blue wizards and to some numenorean sorceress-queen's cats -- but it also (somewhat) applies to the pukelmen and to bombadil and even beorn (tho beorn et al do get dragged into wider plot): viz the troupe arrive at a new level in the house of a new friend or may be foe, which is something that popped into tolk's head as he was writing his way out of the previous chapter's peril, which wasn't prefigured in the underlying version of the mythos, and the mythos then has to be rebuilt round it at some point.

tolk trusting the intrusion of such intuitive as-he-writes happenstance and then backbuilding is mostly not a bad thing! elements that aren't jigsawed tidily into the deeper structures beneath the plot -- and thus seem at an angle to to the plot;s overall tidiness, as they have a reality inependent of his authorial requirements -- are a key element in his world-building: why it can feel solid and even real beyond one person's imagination

so bombadil serves a straightforward structural function -- first post-peril feast&sleep after they leave the shire (AND second lol) -- where this is by definition the WILD and by definition such safe waystations aren't joined up (or it wouldn't be the wild)… and except the backstory is never really rewired round the happenstance (an issue that gandalf never stops thinking about, so it obviously also bothered tolk

i also like that he's a dick! he seriously rescues them twice and is kind and welcoming but SO FULL OF HIMSELF AND HIS SO-CALLED ALT.HIPPIE LIFESTYLE unbeholden to all. i feel that the hobbit response (= "phew we're alive! and safe! this is nice! goldberry is a hottie! i'm actually a bit scared this is sinister and creepy and cultish but i can't in my genuine gratitude say so!") is a good and a complex thing to attempt (they're in the WILD not the SHIRE! different values pertain!) without the attempt fully coming off really