Lord of the Rings

I find I've come to resent the notion espoused by the likes of Terry Pratchett that if LOTR is still your favourite book when you're an adult you must have something wrong with you (this goes hand in hand with the unfortunate realisation despite the humanitarian concerns expressed in his work, Pratchett could be a bit of an unpleasant cynical old git at times). It's not even my actual favourite book, but it's this idea that you instantly jettison things that were a formative experience once you become a supposedly mature adult that can see things for what they really are that I take issue with.

I mean, I guess if your experience of reading ended there it could be a problem. But for me(and I'm sure many others) LOTR was my transition from children's books to adult reading, a massively significant stepping stone. I had a tatty copy of the complete trilogy that went everywhere with me (it didn't start off tatty much to my dad's chagrin) and I read the fuck out of that thing. I remember comparing the size of "Fellowship" to the number of pages in something I'd been reading prior to that(which was probably around 120 pages) and my mind boggling at the difference in scale.

Well the general idea that you can tell anything about anyone based on anything is flawed afaict

Who are your favorite fantasy novelists?

O.K., I give in. J. R. R. Tolkien. I wrote a letter to him once and got a very nice reply. Just think how busy he would have been, and yet he took the time out to write to a fan.

I'm not entirely convinced of merit-via-weight, I'd have to say.

Well, I wasn't dismissing the books I read prior to LOTR(as that would kind-of invalidate the point I was making beforehand), and I feel you're wilfully misinterpreting what I said. It wasn't the weight that made it a valuable experience, but comparing the size of the books brought home how much of a different and more involved reading experience this was.

If that's not a good enough answer, I shall depart this thread henceforth and leave you to your petty quibbles. GOOD DAY, SIR.

Giz your address, I'll send you a copy of the Deathly Hallows.

lol cmon andrew. size is everything to kids! my son literally asks me twice a day at least how tall various basketball players are (which i do get annoyed with, tbf)

size matters to kids, as tove jansson teaches us: "all small creatures should have bows in their tails!"

the legendary dr vick and i once delivered a superb lecture on this exact theme, featuring pictures by IVAN BILIBIN which i can't currently find on the internet :(

Lorien chapters are a slog, stop the narrative dead. Should have let them grieve after Moria, tbh, rather than plunging them into a 3-chapter epsom salt bath.

Also finding it weird that Lorien is about 5 minutes’ drive from Orc-n’-Balrog Central (yeah yeah there’s a river but still).

Never clocked before that Galadriel is Arwen’s grandma

Yeah, I agree, that is one of the weakest sections of the book. Not terrible by any means, but still, it could have been two chapters.

I'm trying to remember if I guessed the Gollum reveal before Tolkien made it explicit. It's kind of funny how long he drags that out.

(The fact that Gollum is the thing following them, I mean.)

Never clocked before that Galadriel is [hidden text]

― Guys don’t @ me because I tazed my own balls alright? (hardcore dilettante)

I actually posted a question about this 2 months ago on the other thread:
The Amazon-Tolkien LOTR prequel/Silmarillion?/Unfinished Tales? thing

xxpost yes that (spoiler detail) was new to me!

See, the things you learn.

The Lorien stretch is wonderful! It's an indulgence of Tolkien's in the best way because among other things I like how it demonstrates how he was able to describe different forests in different locations with an exact eye, but also how pretty much each of the big three visited -- the Old Forest, Lorien and later Fangorn -- all feel different due to the nature of the powers that are there. Like it's not simply 'nature' but a heightened form of each, in different aspects. (While in turn allowing for moments where things are more natural in comparison straight up -- the woods of the Shire, Ithilien, etc.)

Yeah but Ned, it still shoulnta been 3 chapters.

Fucking loving the scene where Legolas, Gimli & Aragorn encounter Eomer & co. First Aragorn is like “everyone chill! Let’s not get punchy!” And then as he tells Eomer why they’re there, he gets himself all worked up and ends with “I’m the baddest motherfucker you ever seen! You gonna dig me, or so I have to chop your fuckin heads off, though we are but three and you five score and five?!”

And Eomer is like “no, that’s ok, man. We cool, we cool.”

I’m with Ned, the Lorien chapters are gorgeous - and you really feel that strong but very ancient power there, similar to Tom Bombadil - it’s cool as hell and imo three chapters gives you the full weight of it

this conversation has been lovely to follow. i finally reread LOTR last summer after meaning to do so for years and it's one of my few genuinely happy, untroubled memories of 2020. i'm glad so many ppl share my reaction to tolkien's descriptive prose, which i skimmed impatiently as a teen but which sucked me in this time around, just the sheer persuasive detail of it and the sense of solidness and weight that you feel beneath everything. frodo and sam climbing down a cliff feels real to me in a way that so much stuff that happens in novels doesn't.

otm

Lorien chapters are a change of pace.

Again I think this either considered or instinctive by Tolkien after the trauma or Moria but no accident.

The flight out of the caves and into the light, free but only then free to be devastated- possibly the single most notable moment where the movie most successfully makes visual what can be somewhat skipped over in the reading.

Y'all are making me want to read it again, I have enough on my list already!

We moved to Birmingham a couple of years ago, not far from where Tolkien grew up, so we've paid a few visits to Sarehole Mill, the inspiration(*) for the Old Mill at Hobbiton, and Moseley Bog, the twisted tangled and boggy wood which inspired(*) Mirkwood and the other ancient forests. There are also two towers which are said to have been an influence - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgbaston_Waterworks and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perrott%27s_Folly - but there's also this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chamberlain_Memorial_Clock_Tower#cite_note-19, which got me wondering which exactly of the many towers are The Two? I think I assumed they were Orthanc and Barad-dûr, seems I was half right:

Tolkien wrote, "The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous."[3] At this stage he planned to title the individual books. The proposed title for Book III was The Treason of Isengard. Book IV was titled The Journey of the Ringbearers or The Ring Goes East. The titles The Treason of Isengard and The Ring Goes East were used in the Millennium edition.

In letters to Rayner Unwin Tolkien considered naming the two as Orthanc and Barad-dûr, Minas Tirith and Barad-dûr, or Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol.[3][4] However, a month later he wrote a note published at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring and later drew a cover illustration, both of which identified the pair as Minas Morgul and Orthanc

(*) apologies to mark s

The flight out of the caves and into the light, free but only then free to be devastated- possibly the single most notable moment where the movie most successfully makes visual what can be somewhat skipped over in the reading.

Ledge im sorry to possibly embarrass u but tolkien grew up around birmingham, alabama

His own performance of bilbo always had a pronounced Mississippi accent

Id have thought he would've been happy to leave the two towers open but there you go

lol i have always been confused by which towers were The Two, thanks ledge

the two towers are sam and frodo obv, they are pint-sized towers of strength

as a child growing up in shropshire i was kept fearfully awake by the huge sleepless eye hovering over ironbridge, another of his so-called "inspirations"

post-Moria Orlando is very early attempting the Joey Tribbiani "divide 232 by 13" method of grieving

I mean orlando bloom is no fuckin matt leblanc, hes not even a mark wahlberg

He is by a distance the worst actor short of daniel radcliffe to reach any such status

Lets be real like radcliffe is in his own galaxy, then bloom is in a solar system by himself, the next six worst actors are in a clump somewhere about the size of floor five of harrods

https://www.eryn-carantaur.com/legolas_grief1.jpg

this is gabriel byrne AND ewan macgregor erasure

Its a nomination thread and a poll thread at least, but theres just no way that you just offered gabriel byrne from millers crossing up as bloom-level

I think Emilia Clarke feels left out.

He's hollow-eyed and banal but I've come to accept, even quite like Bloom as Legolas. Don't @ me.

I very fuckin will

Anyway there's a thread for this

Somehow this discussion of Our Presidetn has reminded me of a song I began writing for the Hallmark Movie version of LOTR
🎶 What do your
Elf
Eyes
Seeeeeee?
They see me seeing you seeing meeeee🎶

Another of the scenes Jackson got right was the Orcs beset by the Rohirrim. Tolkien’s account of M&P escaping is weirdly slack (altho its great to see Pippin in trickster mode).

I don't mind Bloom, though film Legolas isn't anything like my image of the book Legolas (more of a general elf issue, perhaps). It's also missing some fun moments like his petulance at being blindfolded in Lorien.

tolkien grew up around birmingham alabama
His muse the statue ov Vulcan on Red Mountain---hard to pick a pic, but here's a bunch:
https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJzj4tTP1Tcwrqo0yDVgtFIxqLCwsLA0TEqxNLA0NUgzMDS3MqgwSTS1MDFONEw1NDQxSU7z4i0rzUlOzFMoLkksKU0FACeSElE&q=vulcan+statue&oq=Vulcan+sta&aqs=chrome.1.0i355j46i175i199j0i433j69i57j0l2j0i395l4.8294j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Can I just say:

I am a mere chapter or so away from finishing Two Towers

It has been notable for me to see how rich the character of Faramir is, how much depth he was given in the book vs the short shrift he gets in the movie

Also I love the scene in the book where Faramir warns Frodo that the path they’re taking into the mountains is bad & dangerous & that Gollum seems to him to be capable of murder: and Frodo’s heartbreaking response, like “wtf am I supposed to do, go back? turn around? I have to follow him.”

The whole trek to Shelob’s lair is SO tense & scary, largely because of that shadow cast by Faromir & the knowledge that Frodo knows theyre likely being led into danger & goes anyway :(

Is this your first read or just fresh?

Faramir is a great character for his fairly small role

Book Four might be my favourite. All of those wild landscapes, deep in enemy-occupied territory. A basic overarching problem to solve (how to get into Mordor), as backdrop to the complexity introduced by Gollum. It's so good.

Seconding those landscapes, and what a flow -- the hard edges of the Emyn Muil, the rotten growth of the Dead Marshes, the blasted landscape before the Black Gate, the ruined beauty of Ithilien, the slow transition into the desolation of Morgul Vale and all that entails. All of it described just so.

My entry into the Tolkien Fandom oral histories at Marquette recently went live:

https://cdm16280.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16280coll11/id/509/rec/1

And I was reminded about how my focus was indeed those landscapes and the grounding. I need to make that the focus of a future episode.

xpost i had only read hobbit many times & fellowship once like 10 years ago, i dont think i havs ever made it through the whole trilogy

Oh wow

Thread is now hallowed ground so

lol

My childhood copies were the 1977 Ballantines with Tolkien’s art on the covers. I’m overdue for a reread and it seems critically important for me to get that edition now. Then again, I’ve never read the 50th anniversary cleanup text and I probably should.

the cleanup text is where they cut bombadil entirely

Looking fwd to my 50th anniversary cleanup text, ive taken the liberty of preparing extensive notes of suggested excisions, ive mentioned the main one a few times on other threads iirc