Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

There was a glimpse in the teasers that sorta explains it regarding the Mind Gem, but I guess we'll see how that pans out

It's worth noting that even though everyone in The Infinity War assumed the Vision would die if the Mind Stone was ripped off of his head, we can't be sure the damage really was beyond repair. We don't see a burial for him in Endgame, so maybe his body was kept somewhere in the hope that one day he might be brought back to life? So maybe someone has managed to do that, except that for some reason he can only exist in this weird simulation? And Wanda has decided to stay there with him cos it's the only place where they can be together?

So Im enjoying Wandavision but it sounds like coming at it with no MCU knowledge is rendering it a bit lesser? I mean I dont know/care, but apparently Im missing multitudes, which is a bit irritating.

I'm assuming it's more the other way around, and I get to just enjoy the vibe rather than furiously scrying the runes for Easter eggs.

Good point!

Yeah, seriously, I have watched about half the MCU movies, remember nothing about them (e.g. apparently Vision died in one of the movies I saw but I can't say I remember that, there were like a hundred characters and a lot of stuff was going on) and I am enjoying WandaVision a lot, much more than I have enjoyed any but two or three of the movies, for what matter. It's really good they're trying something different.

another vote for ignorance being bliss here; i think the creators are definitely jerking me around by my nerd leash

I highly doubt the show (or the MCU in general) will go as deep and convoluted as the comics, especially with so little real set up of, say, characters like Wanda and Vision, but who knows. I have a casual understanding of some comics stuff from decades ago, but I'm still enjoying this, as I've enjoyed virtually all the movies. The only time a complete lack of knowledge has hampered me was Agents of SHIELD, which just wasn't doing it for me. And maybe Legion, though I only saw one or two of those episodes.

Legion I loved with no backstory knowledge but I will say I did some reading up on the general gist of his story there. Not that I think it followed the comics that closely anyway?

I think I agreed most with film crit hulk's take on this show - am greatly enjoying Olsen/Bettany's performances but the mystery-box framing is very tiresome and doesn't allow you to fully engage with either the characters or the sitcom settings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/46555836

Someone in the comments mentioned The Good Place as a comparison and I think I would've liked it more if the show had been structured similarly, where the sitcom plots themselves play a role in teaching Wanda to accept/discover reality and face whatever it is she's running from. Right now, it all just seems like elaborate window dressing for the weird bits/main mystery arc and it's hard to say whether it will end up meaning anything more than that once the walls (so to speak) come down.

MI dunno, to me it feels a bit early to judge the show by saying the sitcom elements don't have a deeper thematic meaning, when we don't yet have any idea why Wanda and Vision are living in one. It could be all window-dressing, sure, but we just don't know yet.

Certainly one theme that seems to have been suggested already is that the sitcom reality offers a neat, comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have, but which she has been denied because of her incredibly traumatic experiences. For example, the tragedy of losing your twin is pushed aside because violent death is not subject that would be discussed in this kind of setting, thus allowing Wanda to go on with her daily life without having to think about it. It's worth noting that Pietro's death hasn't even been discussed in any of the movies following Age of Ultron; last Friday's episode was the very first time the MCU actually addressed the issue of how traumatic it must've been for Wanda to lose him.

Another issue is the one the latest episode was all about, i.e. Wanda and Vision having kids. We know that they lived anonymously as a regular loving couple between the events of Civil War and The Infinity War, so certainly the idea of having kids must've crossed their minds. But since she's a weird mutant and he's not even human, the thought of becoming pregnant with his kids and how it would work out, would the kids be healthy or deformed or capable of surviving, must be super scary for them and especially her, since she's the one having to carry them in her womb.

So the latest episode does address these fears and doubts (Wanda is afraid people will see her as a freak and tries to hide the pregnancy, Vision wonders whether the kids will look like half-synthezoids, etc.), but they are resolved in a neat manner with some gags and laughs. The kids turn out to be healthy humans, the doctor is just happy that the family is OK and doesn't seem to care that Wanda went from being 4 months pregnant to giving birth within one day, etc. So again, the sitcom setting allows for clean, tidy way of resolving fears that are not so easily addressed in real life. Even the birth itself is literally clean and lacking of bodily fluids, as TV births tend to be.

yeah I could be on-board on that if they played everything straight without needing to interrupt every episode with "look at this weird thing that doesn't fit in this perfect world" because then, THAT becomes the story and everything else is secondary. as the hulk piece notes:

I always feel like it’s really important to clarify that the great harm of mystery boxing is that it convinced a generation of writers that mysteries were about creating situations where you have no fucking idea what’s going on and everything is vague. They’re not. Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start (even Twin Peaks did this, it just relied on abstract art at times). But nowadays, you have now idea how many fucking bad mysteries don’t realize their “big reveal” is actually their initial incident and main conflict (and should probably be treated as such). So far, Wandavision is just another example of that. I mean, there’s a reason the breaks in reality FEEL like the only compelling and real things that happen in this show…

Because they are the show.

Or at least what the show should be about. Hearing Wanda talk about her brother and Ultron? It matters because it's our baseline reality AND hers (and the only moments the characters are playing the untruth of pantomime). Naturally, we want to be engaging this in some sort of way. But because of the core conceit and the need for all sitcom indulgence, it can’t quite go there bEcAuSe ReAsOnS. Or it doesn’t know how to give us both at the same time. So it just keeps running and teasing and spinning wheels and hoping "curiosity" will be enough. All before utterly depending on the last minute teasing moves to make it seem like we’re having genuine movement.

hard disagree. experiencing the mystery is the main driver, not necessarily that all the pieces will fit together properly. of course, it will be MUCH more satisfying if they do, thematically - but if they don't, that can be judged at the end

Why does this have to be an either/or situation? Why can't the show be about Wanda hiding from her grief and fears in a bubble of unreality that forces outside the bubble are attempting to contain/pierce due to its affect on the outside world?

I dunno, feels like that guy is only just reading the very surface level of plot development without thinking about the subtext, which (I think) has already given us plenty to chew on. Take this quote from him:

Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start

* The first episode sets up the mystery and the central questions: why are Wanda and Vision living inside a sitcom, and how is Vision alive again? The ending of the episode reveals that there are some glitches in the sitcom world, i.e. it doesn't fully function as whoever created it wanted it to function.

* The second episode reveals that Wanda is on some level aware of the simulation, but doesn't want it to end, so when something bad/creepy happens, she can alter the events. This strongly hints that the simulation was created so that she and Vision could have the sort of happy, domestic Hollywood love story they didn't have in the actual world. That larger plot is also neatly reflected in the inner plot of the sitcom story, where Wanda uses powers so that the "freak" nature of her and Vision isn't revealed to the inhabitants of Westview, thus upholding the status quo of the sitcom. We also find out that some outside forces are trying to break in to the simulation, possibly to help Wanda.

* In the third episode, again the inner sitcom plot reflects on the traumas and fears of Wanda (and possibly Vision) too, as I outlined in my post above, further explaining why Wanda wants to stay within the simulation, even if she (at least on some level) knows it's fake. We also learn that at least some of the inhabitants are aware of the nature of their simulated lives, and that the simulation exists in physical space, so it can be infiltrated, and there are competing groups of people trying to do that.

So yeah, I really don't feel like this is the sort of mystery show where everything is revealed with a big twist, because we've already learned a lot about both the outer workings of the simulation and the inner workings of the characters inside it. Admittedly it's happening quite slowly, but I don't mind, IMO the sitcom pastiche is very well done and often funny in itself, so it doesn't feel like only the non-sitcom bits "are the show".

(xxpost)

Mostly I'm impressed with how well they are pastiching the source material

comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have

Though if you think about it, why would the ideal imagined by an Eastern European millennial raised at least partly in captivity be a series of classic American sitcom tropes?

Yeah I don’t buy that; there’s a clear feminist undertone cutting through the story that suggests Vizh as well meaning but lost and Wanda as somewhere between subjugated brainwashed and self-deluding.

They show American sitcoms on European TV too, I used to watch reruns of I Love Lucy and The Munsters when I was a kid. Maybe they were exactly the sort of escapist entertainment she loved in wartime Sokovia?

So assuming this is the overall rolling thread -- Thor: Love and Thunder is under way

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKf4dEGJDNG/

And that's a pretty good message there from the Odinsson

Episode 4 of WandaVision continues to successfully hold my interest in this show and answers a lot of “what is going on” questions.

looking forward to watching it tonight

This was a bonus to taking a sick day

Excited to watch it tonight, for sure.

Fun episode

Very good. Answers some stuff, raises a couple of big questions.

Yeah we’re into it!

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen. Enjoyed it!

Definitely keeping it going — and smart not to have it be a ‘spilt’ episode between the style of the last three and the outside world, key bits at the end aside. Also a great way to loop in a lot of second level MCU characters!

Also, best film use of a certain song since _Withnail and I_

yeah great ep all round

i love kat dennings & praise her showing up in this like a cool best friend you havent seen in years

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things

yeah i'm interested in resolutely straight faced sitcom pastiche with eerie elements, Agents of SWORD is boring

also whats up with "RAM-bo" vs "ram-BEAU"

I assumed it would transition more into continuity nerd stuff as it went along, but assumed we’d at least cover the 20th century before an all-real-world episode

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things

I, too, was a little distracted to constantly hear her name pronounced Rambo. But whatevs.

Apparently there are leaks of the next or future episodes out there? Just because someone has to ruin the fun. Anyway, careful out there on the internet, it is full of information!

Remind me - did we actually get to see anyone snapped back into existence in Endgame? Feel like they just showed up for the big battle scene and this is the first time I can think that we see it happen.

Yeah, Dr. Strange teleported the resurrect-ees onto an empty battlefield just after they were resurrected so we never witnessed their actual reintegration.

the second holland spider man dealt a bit with the implications of people phasing back into existence

I just watched the first four… you guys are going great guns on this shit! I'll only add that, as a amateur scholar of John Byrne (I have been on and off obsessed with the cultish control he has on his drones via John Byrne Forum) that it is clear to me that he retconned the provenance of Thomas and William —that they were always fragments of also ran villain Master Pandemonium and never actual children— not, as he claimed, because Vision is a android and should not be able to reproduce, but because he disliked Steve Engelhart, the writer of the Vision and Scarlet Witch maxi-series wherein the twins were introduced. There can be little doubt that many if not all of the retcons that he initiated during his peak years as the dominant creator in superhero comics were motivated by his personal animus towards other creators.

signed, former neighbor of forks who ain't been in the neighborhood in a year, misses Kensington/Ditmas Park and wonder what it has been like, and enjoyed the company of Forks very much

maybe the "Rambo" pronunciation was the one nod to the 1980s

Gonna tell my grandkids this is Mulder and Scully pic.twitter.com/XPcCDeD8E1

— Ziggy (@mrjafri) January 30, 2021

OTM total X-Files vibe (which I assume was 100% studied and intentional)

?

https://i.imgur.com/t83cUQN.jpg

yeah i'm interested in resolutely straight faced sitcom pastiche with eerie elements, Agents of SWORD is boring

This is exactly how I expected to feel and I've been braced for disappointment when this show got more "normal" but to my great surprise I liked this ep a lot! I have just plain started to feel there's a trustworthy hand on the tiller here.

ditto. seemed like too drastic of a change (i love the first 3 eps) but i appreciate the fact they didn’t drag the “who’s doing it to you wanda!?” aspect out for the rest of the season, because now there can be more interaction between the sitcom stuff and the outside world (as evidenced by the ep5 preview).

it’d be interesting if it became two way and wanda started influencing the world just outside of the bubble in the same manner making it even more x-files etc like.

There are a hundred different intriguing ways it could go short of contradicting the rest of the MCU.

I saw a comment somewhere that asked basically, they know Wanda is there, they know who Vision is, why didn't they contact the Avengers? But after Endgame there kind of aren't any terrestrial Avengers. Iron Man is dead, Black widow is dead, Captain America is gone, Hawkeye one presumes is spending time at the farm, Falcon and Winter soldier are off shooting their show, etc. I guess they could ... call Hulk?

Doesnt this pretty clearly take place between endgame and the big parts of endgame 2? They show the blip and MR going to work for shield and her first assignment being the wandavision world

AFAIC it's after Endgame, before Spider-Man: Far From Home

Yeah it's not the Blip itself being shown at the start, it's the reverse of it! Basically that first scene is happening right at the same time Thanos launches his attack on the Avengers HQ leading directly into the final battle. Then the rest of it is some time later.