Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase 4 & Beyond (and a chance to change your vote)

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xpost Yeah, kinda the same way I would have been fine with a Mandalorian that was just him and Grogu just wandering the universe doing things. Can't last forever but I'll enjoy what I've got in the meantime!

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:01 (three years ago) link

I think the show is also (at least currently) ingeniously low budget compared to, say, The Mandalorian.

Well it does help that the set designs alone are simpler!

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:02 (three years ago) link

lol at that House of M easter egg, nice touch

i think the telekinesis stuff is a nod (and blink and nose twitch) to Bewitched and Dream of Jeannie

can i just say Kathryn Hahn is just painfully hot all the time
http://i.imgur.com/asUL6SW.png

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:32 (three years ago) link

the knottiness and endless rebooting of the marvel universe lends itself well to this kind of red herring baiting... to be honest, the "oh you think you know what's going on fanboy?" approach of the storytelling is among its most winning qualities, especially given that i think it functions without interrupting the base arc

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:35 (three years ago) link

ned, to your point, i think they also change film quality in the "breaks from fake reality" angles as well?

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:36 (three years ago) link

Maybe comic nerds can help me out here, but the movies have only showed Scarlet Witch's powers as being more or less telekinetic, right? No reality bending stuff?

She turned plastic butterflies into real butterflies (though this experience may not have been "real").

Motoroller Scampotron (WmC), Saturday, 23 January 2021 18:41 (three years ago) link

I think I saw someone note elsewhere that June 2, the circled day of the boss coming over for dinner in the first episode

The date of the boss' dinner was 23rd August. People who are not me have speculated this is a reference to Avengers #238 where Vision effectively comes back to life having been shut down by Annihilus in #233.

Well *I* know who he is (aldo), Saturday, 23 January 2021 19:42 (three years ago) link

Sorry, it was actually a line from Agnes!

"Lucky gal, the only way Ralph would remember our anniversary is if there was a beer named June 2nd."

xpost She does that in the show, but she's never done anything like that in any of the movies she's been in, right?

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 23 January 2021 19:48 (three years ago) link

Going with the idea of dates referring to Avengers issues, June 2nd can give us #26.

Captain America shows everyone the new system for recieving secret messages, but Hawkeye doesn't pay attention. Hawkeye returns to the mansion and tries to check his messages but can't remember how to work it. He decides to use one of Tony Stark's inventions: the "subliminal recall inducer" to remember.

Well *I* know who he is (aldo), Saturday, 23 January 2021 20:04 (three years ago) link

Maybe comic nerds can help me out here, but the movies have only showed Scarlet Witch's powers as being more or less telekinetic, right? No reality bending stuff? It seems weird to me that they would suddenly introduce radically new super powers just for the show, with no foundation.
They haven't shown her to have reality-warping powers, no... Her power set in the movies is not very well defined, but she seems to have telekinesis and limited telepathy, though she hasn't used the latter after The Age of Ultron. In the comics her original power was altering probabilities in favour of the heroes or against the opponents, but this was later reconned to be a manifestation of larger reality-warping capabilities, making her massively more powerful. And she later learned some witchcraft too, IIRC this came from her learning about a lineage of witches on her mother's side or something?

Though I think it's possible the movie Wanda doesn't actually have reality-altering powers after all. Based on what we saw in the latest episode, Westview doesn't seem to be a fictional universe created by her rather than some kind of Truman Show style simulation with actual people inside it. She still has control over the show, but not necessarily because of her innate powers.

Tuomas, Saturday, 23 January 2021 23:18 (three years ago) link

Which would explain the kind of general unease the neighbors have around her. But how to explain the presence of Vision at all, then?

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 23 January 2021 23:48 (three years ago) link

There was a glimpse in the teasers that sorta explains it regarding the Mind Gem, but I guess we'll see how that pans out

Nhex, Sunday, 24 January 2021 02:47 (three years ago) link

It's worth noting that even though everyone in The Infinity War assumed the Vision would die if the Mind Stone was ripped off of his head, we can't be sure the damage really was beyond repair. We don't see a burial for him in Endgame, so maybe his body was kept somewhere in the hope that one day he might be brought back to life? So maybe someone has managed to do that, except that for some reason he can only exist in this weird simulation? And Wanda has decided to stay there with him cos it's the only place where they can be together?

Tuomas, Sunday, 24 January 2021 22:59 (three years ago) link

So Im enjoying Wandavision but it sounds like coming at it with no MCU knowledge is rendering it a bit lesser? I mean I dont know/care, but apparently Im missing multitudes, which is a bit irritating.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 25 January 2021 02:13 (three years ago) link

I'm assuming it's more the other way around, and I get to just enjoy the vibe rather than furiously scrying the runes for Easter eggs.

shivers me timber (sic), Monday, 25 January 2021 02:15 (three years ago) link

Good point!

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 25 January 2021 02:29 (three years ago) link

Yeah, seriously, I have watched about half the MCU movies, remember nothing about them (e.g. apparently Vision died in one of the movies I saw but I can't say I remember that, there were like a hundred characters and a lot of stuff was going on) and I am enjoying WandaVision a lot, much more than I have enjoyed any but two or three of the movies, for what matter. It's really good they're trying something different.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, 25 January 2021 03:06 (three years ago) link

another vote for ignorance being bliss here; i think the creators are definitely jerking me around by my nerd leash

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Monday, 25 January 2021 03:36 (three years ago) link

I highly doubt the show (or the MCU in general) will go as deep and convoluted as the comics, especially with so little real set up of, say, characters like Wanda and Vision, but who knows. I have a casual understanding of some comics stuff from decades ago, but I'm still enjoying this, as I've enjoyed virtually all the movies. The only time a complete lack of knowledge has hampered me was Agents of SHIELD, which just wasn't doing it for me. And maybe Legion, though I only saw one or two of those episodes.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 25 January 2021 04:24 (three years ago) link

Legion I loved with no backstory knowledge but I will say I did some reading up on the general gist of his story there. Not that I think it followed the comics that closely anyway?

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 25 January 2021 05:17 (three years ago) link

I think I agreed most with film crit hulk's take on this show - am greatly enjoying Olsen/Bettany's performances but the mystery-box framing is very tiresome and doesn't allow you to fully engage with either the characters or the sitcom settings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/46555836

Someone in the comments mentioned The Good Place as a comparison and I think I would've liked it more if the show had been structured similarly, where the sitcom plots themselves play a role in teaching Wanda to accept/discover reality and face whatever it is she's running from. Right now, it all just seems like elaborate window dressing for the weird bits/main mystery arc and it's hard to say whether it will end up meaning anything more than that once the walls (so to speak) come down.

Roz, Monday, 25 January 2021 07:49 (three years ago) link

MI dunno, to me it feels a bit early to judge the show by saying the sitcom elements don't have a deeper thematic meaning, when we don't yet have any idea why Wanda and Vision are living in one. It could be all window-dressing, sure, but we just don't know yet.

Certainly one theme that seems to have been suggested already is that the sitcom reality offers a neat, comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have, but which she has been denied because of her incredibly traumatic experiences. For example, the tragedy of losing your twin is pushed aside because violent death is not subject that would be discussed in this kind of setting, thus allowing Wanda to go on with her daily life without having to think about it. It's worth noting that Pietro's death hasn't even been discussed in any of the movies following Age of Ultron; last Friday's episode was the very first time the MCU actually addressed the issue of how traumatic it must've been for Wanda to lose him.

Another issue is the one the latest episode was all about, i.e. Wanda and Vision having kids. We know that they lived anonymously as a regular loving couple between the events of Civil War and The Infinity War, so certainly the idea of having kids must've crossed their minds. But since she's a weird mutant and he's not even human, the thought of becoming pregnant with his kids and how it would work out, would the kids be healthy or deformed or capable of surviving, must be super scary for them and especially her, since she's the one having to carry them in her womb.

So the latest episode does address these fears and doubts (Wanda is afraid people will see her as a freak and tries to hide the pregnancy, Vision wonders whether the kids will look like half-synthezoids, etc.), but they are resolved in a neat manner with some gags and laughs. The kids turn out to be healthy humans, the doctor is just happy that the family is OK and doesn't seem to care that Wanda went from being 4 months pregnant to giving birth within one day, etc. So again, the sitcom setting allows for clean, tidy way of resolving fears that are not so easily addressed in real life. Even the birth itself is literally clean and lacking of bodily fluids, as TV births tend to be.

Tuomas, Monday, 25 January 2021 08:34 (three years ago) link

yeah I could be on-board on that if they played everything straight without needing to interrupt every episode with "look at this weird thing that doesn't fit in this perfect world" because then, THAT becomes the story and everything else is secondary. as the hulk piece notes:

I always feel like it’s really important to clarify that the great harm of mystery boxing is that it convinced a generation of writers that mysteries were about creating situations where you have no fucking idea what’s going on and everything is vague. They’re not. Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start (even Twin Peaks did this, it just relied on abstract art at times). But nowadays, you have now idea how many fucking bad mysteries don’t realize their “big reveal” is actually their initial incident and main conflict (and should probably be treated as such). So far, Wandavision is just another example of that. I mean, there’s a reason the breaks in reality FEEL like the only compelling and real things that happen in this show…

Because they are the show.

Or at least what the show should be about. Hearing Wanda talk about her brother and Ultron? It matters because it's our baseline reality AND hers (and the only moments the characters are playing the untruth of pantomime). Naturally, we want to be engaging this in some sort of way. But because of the core conceit and the need for all sitcom indulgence, it can’t quite go there bEcAuSe ReAsOnS. Or it doesn’t know how to give us both at the same time. So it just keeps running and teasing and spinning wheels and hoping "curiosity" will be enough. All before utterly depending on the last minute teasing moves to make it seem like we’re having genuine movement.

Roz, Monday, 25 January 2021 11:03 (three years ago) link

hard disagree. experiencing the mystery is the main driver, not necessarily that all the pieces will fit together properly. of course, it will be MUCH more satisfying if they do, thematically - but if they don't, that can be judged at the end

Nhex, Monday, 25 January 2021 13:37 (three years ago) link

Why does this have to be an either/or situation? Why can't the show be about Wanda hiding from her grief and fears in a bubble of unreality that forces outside the bubble are attempting to contain/pierce due to its affect on the outside world?

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 25 January 2021 13:43 (three years ago) link

I dunno, feels like that guy is only just reading the very surface level of plot development without thinking about the subtext, which (I think) has already given us plenty to chew on. Take this quote from him:

Mysteries are actually very clear situations with a driving central question that is also clear (usually who killed X or something). They investigate. New information comes to light and changes the scope of the understanding. And then, in the end, you have utter clarity of the driving questions at the start

I feel the first three episodes have already done plenty of the stuff he describes, even if he feels they haven't. If we look at what's happened in them:

* The first episode sets up the mystery and the central questions: why are Wanda and Vision living inside a sitcom, and how is Vision alive again? The ending of the episode reveals that there are some glitches in the sitcom world, i.e. it doesn't fully function as whoever created it wanted it to function.

* The second episode reveals that Wanda is on some level aware of the simulation, but doesn't want it to end, so when something bad/creepy happens, she can alter the events. This strongly hints that the simulation was created so that she and Vision could have the sort of happy, domestic Hollywood love story they didn't have in the actual world. That larger plot is also neatly reflected in the inner plot of the sitcom story, where Wanda uses powers so that the "freak" nature of her and Vision isn't revealed to the inhabitants of Westview, thus upholding the status quo of the sitcom. We also find out that some outside forces are trying to break in to the simulation, possibly to help Wanda.

* In the third episode, again the inner sitcom plot reflects on the traumas and fears of Wanda (and possibly Vision) too, as I outlined in my post above, further explaining why Wanda wants to stay within the simulation, even if she (at least on some level) knows it's fake. We also learn that at least some of the inhabitants are aware of the nature of their simulated lives, and that the simulation exists in physical space, so it can be infiltrated, and there are competing groups of people trying to do that.

So yeah, I really don't feel like this is the sort of mystery show where everything is revealed with a big twist, because we've already learned a lot about both the outer workings of the simulation and the inner workings of the characters inside it. Admittedly it's happening quite slowly, but I don't mind, IMO the sitcom pastiche is very well done and often funny in itself, so it doesn't feel like only the non-sitcom bits "are the show".

(xxpost)

Tuomas, Monday, 25 January 2021 13:45 (three years ago) link

Mostly I'm impressed with how well they are pastiching the source material

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Monday, 25 January 2021 13:52 (three years ago) link

comfortable setting for Wanda to experience the sort of life she would want to have

Though if you think about it, why would the ideal imagined by an Eastern European millennial raised at least partly in captivity be a series of classic American sitcom tropes?

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 25 January 2021 15:10 (three years ago) link

Yeah I don’t buy that; there’s a clear feminist undertone cutting through the story that suggests Vizh as well meaning but lost and Wanda as somewhere between subjugated brainwashed and self-deluding.

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Monday, 25 January 2021 15:17 (three years ago) link

They show American sitcoms on European TV too, I used to watch reruns of I Love Lucy and The Munsters when I was a kid. Maybe they were exactly the sort of escapist entertainment she loved in wartime Sokovia?

Tuomas, Monday, 25 January 2021 15:17 (three years ago) link

So assuming this is the overall rolling thread -- Thor: Love and Thunder is under way

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKf4dEGJDNG/

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 17:07 (three years ago) link

And that's a pretty good message there from the Odinsson

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 17:07 (three years ago) link

Episode 4 of WandaVision continues to successfully hold my interest in this show and answers a lot of “what is going on” questions.

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Friday, 29 January 2021 19:27 (three years ago) link

looking forward to watching it tonight

the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Friday, 29 January 2021 19:27 (three years ago) link

This was a bonus to taking a sick day

Hello Nice FBI Lady (DJP), Friday, 29 January 2021 19:30 (three years ago) link

Excited to watch it tonight, for sure.

soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 29 January 2021 19:46 (three years ago) link

Fun episode

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Saturday, 30 January 2021 00:44 (three years ago) link

Very good. Answers some stuff, raises a couple of big questions.

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 30 January 2021 02:15 (three years ago) link

Yeah we’re into it!

(•̪●) (carne asada), Saturday, 30 January 2021 03:36 (three years ago) link

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen. Enjoyed it!

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Saturday, 30 January 2021 06:32 (three years ago) link

Definitely keeping it going — and smart not to have it be a ‘spilt’ episode between the style of the last three and the outside world, key bits at the end aside. Also a great way to loop in a lot of second level MCU characters!

Also, best film use of a certain song since _Withnail and I_

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 30 January 2021 06:48 (three years ago) link

yeah great ep all round

i love kat dennings & praise her showing up in this like a cool best friend you havent seen in years

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 30 January 2021 07:27 (three years ago) link

I wouldnt have got a few bits of what was going on if my partner hadnt explained some stuff from Avengers which I havent seen

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things

shivers me timber (sic), Saturday, 30 January 2021 07:44 (three years ago) link

yeah i'm interested in resolutely straight faced sitcom pastiche with eerie elements, Agents of SWORD is boring

also whats up with "RAM-bo" vs "ram-BEAU"

adam, Saturday, 30 January 2021 12:49 (three years ago) link

I assumed it would transition more into continuity nerd stuff as it went along, but assumed we’d at least cover the 20th century before an all-real-world episode

shivers me timber (sic), Saturday, 30 January 2021 13:26 (three years ago) link

I was very annoyed that there wasn't any 1980s sitcom stuff at all, and had to spend half the ep wiki-ing things


I hope you will forgive the very mild and good-natured schadenfreude I'm feeling rn.

Vladislav Bibidonurtmi (Old Lunch), Saturday, 30 January 2021 14:41 (three years ago) link

I, too, was a little distracted to constantly hear her name pronounced Rambo. But whatevs.

Apparently there are leaks of the next or future episodes out there? Just because someone has to ruin the fun. Anyway, careful out there on the internet, it is full of information!

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 30 January 2021 15:15 (three years ago) link

Remind me - did we actually get to see anyone snapped back into existence in Endgame? Feel like they just showed up for the big battle scene and this is the first time I can think that we see it happen.

Nhex, Saturday, 30 January 2021 17:51 (three years ago) link

Yeah, Dr. Strange teleported the resurrect-ees onto an empty battlefield just after they were resurrected so we never witnessed their actual reintegration.

Vladislav Bibidonurtmi (Old Lunch), Saturday, 30 January 2021 18:22 (three years ago) link

the second holland spider man dealt a bit with the implications of people phasing back into existence

tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 January 2021 19:07 (three years ago) link


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