2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

The last Santorum reads like rejected lyrics from Bowie's "Big Brother."

*last Santorum excerpt

Sy Hersh may be an expert on certain things (although what I've read by him in The New Yorker seems to have often landed wide of the truth) but I wouldn't necessarily consider him an expert on the electorate or political mood shifts.

xposts

Worth noting in that Santorum piece:

While he's partially right about what's happened in the Democratic party over the last 40 years, he avoids mention of the concurrent rightward shift in the Republican party (towards religious fundamentalism, harsh militarism, and authoritarian centralization of power w/ the executive). More honest to say that the parties split in the sixties and have been moving away from one another ever since. Which is old news anyway.

i could be wrong but i think single-payer is inevitable. the question is how long are we going to keep paying double and keep wrecking peoples' entire lives and leaving millions uninsured. the cw could be right that it's still politically unfeasible. who knows. but the day will come when people will be begging for it. it would be nice to set it up before that day arrives.

yeah o nate that's true

contederizer you think the democrats have been moving "away" from the republicans since the 1960s??

What about a small terror attack? Or an attack not on US soil but on an ally? Or any event that brings national security further into the fore-front of people's minds that it is right at this moment, in the middle of an Obama-mentum media frenzy?

considering the media, there will be no such thing as a "small" terror attack on US soil. also, considering how much the 7/7 london bombings shifted US public opinion on its central defense question (iraq) (ie: not at all), i don't think a foreign attack would mean very much either.

i think i've answered this, tbh: some 'event' that gets people scared again and starts tipping things toward mccain (or toward the right in some general sense) is not going to damage hillary any less than it would obama. he promised to fuck with pakistan if he had to!

xps

what about a giant sea turtle attack?

-- Jordan, Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:38 PM

mccain & obama have to trek across ny to save hilary. santorum has the camera.

man-on-turtle

why does anybody care what this douchebag loser says - he's not even in office

x-posts

^^ it's a philly paper. plus, he's hilarious

Does Huckabee explode after getting bitten in the subway?

huckabee explodes but manages to get back to his original pre-explosion weight through exercise and dieting

someone please post Santy's concession speech photo again.

huckabee explodes but manages to get back to his original pre-explosion weight through exercise and dieting sucking on the blood of Jewish babies.

man we're gonna NEED those human-animal hybrids

lolz Alfred

Kucinich gets away on the first helicopter.

contenderizer, the overall cost of insuring the united states would be as little as half what it is now if the us moves to single-payer. i don't have links to hand but every study done shows massive savings.

I don't think this is true. In 2004 American families spent something like $500 billion on health care. I've read only that we should be able to save enough per person (given that we're now spending about $7,000/person) to pay for universal health care. And no more. See Physicians for a National Health Program site for details. We're not talking about cutting costs. We're talking about extending benefits while shifting the burden from consumers/businesses to the gov't.

And I didn't say the cost of administrative bureacracy tends to bloat over time. I said it "tends to". I think there's good reason to worry here.

SEIU, who formerly endorsed Edwards, is set to endorse Obama according to Politico

contederizer you think the democrats have been moving "away" from the republicans since the 1960s??

Nah. It was true during the 60s/70s and to some degree in the 80s, but the tide has turned. I was mostly granting his point (which has some validity - Democrats did embrace youth culture 60s values, and that did drive a wedge between the parties) so that I could point out the bit about Republicans.

Sort of a yes/no thing. I mean, you see a lot more support for NORML, expanded free-expression (yay flag-burning), tree-hugging, gay smooches, etc. in the Democratic than the Republican party, even today.

sorry, SEIU had not endorsed Edwards before, my mistake. But this is still a pretty solid union endorsement.

LOL @ John McCain Stealing HRC's Slogans Against Obama.

That slogan can't fail, Senator.

hillary should start saying 'my friends' a lot

ooo here comes mr. substance!

obama's credit card holders' bill of rights:

* Ban Unilateral Changes: Currently, credit card companies can unilaterally change the terms of a credit card agreement at any time for any reason with only a 15-day notice to the consumer. Barack Obama will ban these unilateral changes in credit card agreements unless companies have obtained written consent from consumers and have followed the rules and terms of the agreement.
* Apply Interest Rate Increases Only to Future Debt: Credit card companies often apply increased interest rates to both new debt incurred by the cardholder, as well as previously incurred debt. Barack Obama will require increased interest rates to apply only to future credit card debt, and not to debt incurred prior to the increase.
* Prohibit Interest on Fees: Credit card companies often charge interest on transaction fees, such as late fees or paying a bill by telephone. Barack Obama will prohibit credit card issuers from charging interest on transaction fees.
* Prohibit “Universal Defaults”: “Universal defaults” are a practice in which a credit card company raises an individual’s interest rate based on failure to pay a different creditor on time. Barack Obama will prohibit this practice.
* Require Prompt and Fair Crediting of Cardholder Payments: Barack Obama will require credit card issuers to apply payments first to the credit card balance with the highest rate of interest and to minimize finance charges.

plus he's picked up the National Infrastructure Bank idea from Chris Dodd

God my post about health care up there is all fucked up. I'm just gonna do it again...

contenderizer, the overall cost of insuring the united states would be as little as half what it is now if the us moves to single-payer. i don't have links to hand but every study done shows massive savings.

-- Tracer Hand

I don't think this is true. In 2004 American families spent something like $500 billion on health care. I've read only that we should be able to save enough per person (given that we're now spending about $7,000/person) to pay for universal health care. And no more. See Physicians for a National Health Program site for details. We're not talking about cutting costs. We're talking about extending benefits, without increasing costs, while shifting the burden from consumers/businesses to the gov't.

And I didn't say the cost of administrative bureacracy ALWAYS bloats over time. I said it "tends to". I think there's good reason to worry here.

While he's partially right about what's happened in the Democratic party over the last 40 years, he avoids mention of the concurrent rightward shift in the Republican party (towards religious fundamentalism, harsh militarism, and authoritarian centralization of power w/ the executive). More honest to say that the parties split in the sixties and have been moving away from one another ever since. Which is old news anyway.

-- contenderizer, Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:40 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

nah the shift has definitely been on the part of the republicans reorganizing around key themes in the 60s ... the dems have been in a sort of freefall since the 50s, more or less, when conservatism was declared 'dead'

the republican party was basically dead in the 40s, it was recreated in grassroots movements in the 50s, thru PTA/PTO organizing, john birch society, anti-communism/'flouride in our water!' movements etc

Fox News Radio host Tom Sullivan took a call from a listener who stated that when listening to Barack Obama speak, "it harkens back to when I was younger and I used to watch those deals with Hitler, how he would excite the crowd and they'd come to their feet and scream and yell." Sullivan then played a "side-by-side comparison" of a Hitler speech and an Obama speech. Sullivan mimicked the crowd during both speeches, yelling, "Yay! Yay!" When a later caller complained that Sullivan was "denigrating" Obama with the comparison, Sullivan said he wouldn't play it again, then begged: "Can I, please, one more time? Just one more time? Then I won't do it again. ... Until the next time."

Oh, hurray.

also ayn rand-ish libertarianism

primary victory of goldwater in '64 the first signal that 'real conservatism' had returned. Repubs today prob see Ike as an even milder Clinton-esque moderate figure

Meanwhile, don't count out McCain at all: Tough Guys Win GEs. He's a war hero, he was a POW, he's a hawk, he's supposedly a hotheaded tough guy. This election cycle may be different for a lot of reasons, so maybe a McCain-type won't win, but if it is such an election cycle, it will run against prevailing trends.

I don't want to get complacent, but I do take some comfort from articles like this:

Policy Shifts Likely As Candidates Share Some Similar Views

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-AP406_CONSEN_20080213195214.gif

hillary should support waterboarding to distinguish herself from mccain

the dems have been in a sort of freefall since the 50s, more or less, when conservatism was declared 'dead'

-- deej

I don't know that I buy this, not entirely. The aspects of 60s style countercultural thinking that the Republican party use to so effectively to foment anti-liberal hysteria really are part of the heart and soul of the modern Democratic party, at least as far as the electorate goes. City folk, pro-choice, pro homosexual marriage, pro relaxation of drug laws, worried about militarism, big on gun control, suspicious of country folk and people who wear religion on their sleeves. Those factors are arguably as key to the Democrats appeal as any representation of labor interests.

I support boogieboarding.

uh yeah carter reagan bush clinton all real tough guys

http://southdakotapolitics.blogs.com/south_dakota_politics/images/reagan-thumb.jpg

check out the Gipper's chub.

the dems have been in a sort of freefall since the 50s, more or less, when conservatism was declared 'dead'

-- deej

I don't know that I buy this, not entirely. The aspects of 60s style countercultural thinking that the Republican party use to so effectively to foment anti-liberal hysteria really are part of the heart and soul of the modern Democratic party, at least as far as the electorate goes. City folk, pro-choice, pro homosexual marriage, pro relaxation of drug laws, worried about militarism, big on gun control, suspicious of country folk and people who wear religion on their sleeves. Those factors are arguably as key to the Democrats appeal as any representation of labor interests.

-- contenderizer, Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:11 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah sorry that should have read 60s, obv civil rights etc. were huge successes from the dem side

unbelievable

fuck time magazine

Bob Dole is a tough guy. BOB DOLE.

primary victory of goldwater in '64 the first signal that 'real conservatism' had returned. Repubs today prob see Ike as an even milder Clinton-esque moderate figur

the FDR remaking of the party had so demoralized the GOP that Nixon was considered the "true" conservative when he campaigned for Ike's VP seat; all they had to run against Stevenson the first time was a return to a "cleaner" Washington.

why do you hate reagan/freedom so much and what?

i hate reagan, too, and time magazine kind of sucks, but to their defense, don't they generally make the presidential winner the "man of the year?" i don't know. i thought GWB got it both times he won

i dont think weve had a major candidate w/mccains sort of bad angry vibes since nixon

Reagan was also a cover boy during the "Lady Liberty" hoohah of July '86.

"man of the year" just means "newsmaker of the year" you guys - i mean i even won it a couple years ago

http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1986/1101860707_400.jpg

okay, so it looks as though both the SEIU and the UFCW are both set to back Obama. that's a big chunk of union support.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2004/1101041227_400.jpg

loooooooooooooool