GET OUT: US politics November 2020

I hope you're right. I never thought the outgoing president would go to war: the fucker did just what he said he was gonna do, and not going to war was one of those things. I don't trust Biden and "the Democratic establishment" on this, not when "an economy" is gonna need to be "stimulated". But I hope I'm wrong.

Harris will surely not appear to be a sure thing to the Mayo Petes of the world in 24

It’s kinda hilarious that if Biden plans to decline a second term instead of I guess dying he’ll have to announce it by like March of 2023

I don't believe the right-wing talking point that there's a done deal for Biden to step down by date certain so Harris can run as an incumbent, but it's certainly a possibility.

I have no fear of war in the sense we understood it before... 2008. Boots on the ground means body bags coming home means bad press - we'll just carry out assassinations, drone strikes and the occasional strategic bombing (though they probably even learned their lesson about that from Libya and Syria) and let the fine folks at the CIA foment coups.

There is no mechanism to push him (presumably left). The time to do that was in January, February or March 2020 by nominating someone else. Joe Biden's politics have been on display for our entire lives - better than Trump, but still thoroughly rotten.

The one option that's even theoretically possible - primarying him or not voting for him in 2024 - is most likely irrelevant because he's not likely to run again. (And let's be honest, no matter what he did, anyone suggesting primarying a sitting Democratic President would be strung up for suggesting it in the age of every election being a referendum on the end of the world and Worst Republican Ever.)

Maintain hope (in Biden) or don't, that's none of anyone else's business - but likewise, there's no reason to disdain people who look at the situation and don't reach that conclusion.

It's not disdain, I just don't agree that giving up is the answer. No, there isn't an easy mechanism, but I don't agree with the premise that there is nothing that can be done.

Baring a specific health setback or his prospects being obviously nil, I would expect Biden to run in 2024. You don't spend 30+ years trying to be president just to give it up because people think you should.

we'll just carry out assassinations, drone strikes and the occasional strategic bombing (though they probably even learned their lesson about that from Libya and Syria) and let the fine folks at the CIA foment coups.

And selling loads of weapons, of course.

He's wearing a boot today as a result of a hairline fracture, not the first health problem we'll see.

The negative nancies are operating under the (understandable, given the past four years) misapprehension that the president = the entire party. He's not a king, and if you're already giving up hope that his actions and decisions could ever possibly be curtailed, that's on you.

If it looks like Biden's thinking about a second run, I'd expect to see lots of Democratic leaks and rumors about him "slipping" and so forth.

those will be overwhelmed by republicans saying he's literally dying, he's worse than reagan in 1988, or that he's straight-up dead. in any of those cases, the plan the entire time was for kamala harris to become president. and that's a big problem, because she's not white

It's not disdain, I just don't agree that giving up is the answer. No, there isn't an easy mechanism, but I don't agree with the premise that there is nothing that can be done.

'Giving up' on Biden is not the same as giving up politically, though. It's actually more valuable, because it means redirecting your energies to somewhere you can at least possibly make a difference. Taking part in a union drive at work would be a more concrete and effective political act than anything you could do in terms of the Presidency for at least the next 3.5 years.

You say no 'easy' mechanism - what is the mechanism at all?!

Taking part in a union drive at work would be a more concrete and effective political act than anything you could do in terms of the Presidency for at least the next 3.5 years.

otm

xpost - C'mon now, you are just being willfully obtuse at this point and I'm done engaging with you. You know very well there are other methods to hold our elected officials accountable, even when it isn't easy.

There is no mechanism to push him (presumably left).

You've said things like this before. Does that mean you think there is no way to exert public pressure through protests or advocacy campaigns?

unless his presidency is a carter-level catastrophe (possible) or his health drastically declines (also possible), biden will absolutely run again in four years.

Observing the actions and words of Joe Biden, and the records of his cabinet members, does not constitute giving up on pushing them (or lower, easier-to-reach elements of the party) in the direction of policies that acknowledge and consider humanity. Rather, it is essential in order to know where they need to be pushed.

You know very well there are other methods to hold our elected officials accountable, even when it isn't easy.

You've said things like this before. Does that mean you think there is no way to exert public pressure through protests or advocacy campaigns?

Before the election I asked what the mechanism was, actually, and got crickets. The idea of 'pushing him left' is a comforting myth - you vote for the politician as they've presented themselves to you.

Two mechanisms - impeachment and removal (Donald Trump couldn't get removed from office after successive iterations of halfwit Watergate) and voting them out/not voting for them (if Biden ran in 2024, anyone who suggested not voting for him would be the Antichrist because every election is the most important one ever, etc.).

Protests? Joe Biden ran for President through months-long civil unrest and has rejected the goals of that protest movement repeatedly. It's being reported that he's still pushing for Rahm Emanuel in the Cabinet.

Advocacy can work on people afraid for their jobs - a Representative who might get primaried or someone at risk of losing in the general, for instance - but in a safe job? What do they have to fear?

Joe Biden is either a one-term President or safely ensconced as the 2024 nominee. Would you, under any realistic circumstances, consider not voting for the Democratic nominee in 2024?

a lot of folks on Twitter who say they are focusing on getting someone more progressive in line for 2024.

That's a legitimate activity, but I'd hope the focus isn't entirely on who the candidate will be, so much as a focus on organizing around anything that excites and motivates progressive voters and can unify them into a more effective bloc.

You say no 'easy' mechanism - what is the mechanism at all?!

Mobilizing a coalition of motivated voters and converting them into activists between elections. Gather your strength and make it manifest. Look at the frigging Tea Party for clues. Their public face may have been a mob of fools, but they were fools who were carefully assembled and directed by good organizers.

That's not a mechanism for "pushing Joe Biden left."

It is a mechanism for pushing politics left and Joe Biden can move or get left behind.

You've said things like this before. Does that mean you think there is no way to exert public pressure through protests or advocacy campaigns?

Joe Biden's response to every-second-daily riots by police against the citizenry in June was to pledge to increase funding for the police, and train them to shoot protestors against police violence, instead of the tear gas they were using against us - in violation of the Geneva convention - at the time.

During the televised campaign debates last month, he repeated these pledges, and declared that the entire institution of American policing was wholly & irreparably tainted, but that enabling collusion between internal police review boards was a solution and that external oversight would not be applied under his druthers.

During active protests against police murder in PA after that, he took off his mask to approach cameras and declare that protestors were the problem. Hours later, cops straight up smashed a woman's car windows and stole her baby while kicking her in the street, in order to create a fake PR stunt. Biden has yet to suggest that this kidnapping by the cops might have been the cops' fault.

It seems very, very unlikely that Joseph Biden, in particular, is susceptible to public protests as a lever of change.

My sense is the US joining the French/UK intervention in Libya and the continuing mess that is Syria has really soured much of the foreign policy blob on overt interventions. The only place it works is where there's the US is just providing fire support for a strong local force (the SDF in Rojava, Shia militias in Iraq).

But Samantha Powers is still on Biden's advisory board, and her life mission is to prevent future Rwandas and Bosnias. If gets an administration post, she'll be the person who poses the greatest threat. Not a s(t)olidly competent blobster like Blinken.

guys for there to be a 2024 election there has to be a 2024 first

Well, if there's nothing I can do, guess I'll crawl into the ground for the next four years and come back out to vote for the Democrat in 2024. So long!

It is a mechanism for pushing politics left and Joe Biden can move or get left behind.

The question was moving Joe Biden left, though. As I said in repeated responses - once you 'give up' on Diamond Joe, you can focus your energy on "pushing politics left" in areas where you have agency.

this was many xps - the impact of right-wing activists (ignoring the Koch money that flooded into the Tea Party from day 3) is effective because Republicans are terrified of their voters. They can't even make the mildest acknowledgement that Biden won the election.

You don't make Democratic politicians afraid of their voters by 'voting blue no matter who.'

Well, if there's nothing I can do, guess I'll crawl into the ground for the next four years and come back out to vote for the Democrat in 2024. So long!

'Giving up' on Biden is not the same as giving up politically, though. It's actually more valuable, because it means redirecting your energies to somewhere you can at least possibly make a difference. Taking part in a union drive at work would be a more concrete and effective political act than anything you could do in terms of the Presidency for at least the next 3.5 years.

this was many xps - the impact of right-wing activists (ignoring the Koch money that flooded into the Tea Party from day 3) is effective because Republicans are terrified of their voters. They can't even make the mildest acknowledgement that Biden won the election.

part of this though is that republicanism (or trumpism/populism/whatever) is basically just nihilism, no one believes or even wants anything concrete other than continuing to perpetuate cruelty on people they don't like so it's much easier for voters to walk away. like for example "The Wall" doesn't exist in any meaningful way, it's just an idea

also there's a least some threat of violence

I work for an international nonprofit. I don't think there's any unionization happening there.

While I'm in my hole in the ground, I'm going to donate to Fair Fight, though.

The funny part of all of this is that I think I ultimately agree with milo, at least in terms of where to refocus the energy. The point of my original post was the people I'm seeing on Twitter who appear to be just giving up on the Dems in general, not only Biden. That's what annoyed me.

The effectiveness of right-wing activism extends decades before Trumpism, though. A central feature has always been financial backing from insane rich people so that unpopular ideas could still be spread far and wide but the second has been a willingness to cut out any Republican who doesn't toe the reactionary line without a second thought. Usually this has been in pursuit of concrete goals, not just wicker men like The Wall.

I probably didn't word it as concisely as I should have, but throwing your hands up and walking away from engaging in politics completely because you are pissed about Biden isn't the answer. At all.

I'm not pissed about Biden, I'm depressed because other people are pissed about Biden.

xpost to milo

i agree w/that, i was just thinking that trump has definitely changed things, in that his particular brand of incoherence and hatefulness has created a cult of personality within the party that they are finding now they can't entirely control.

trumpers/Q people feel fundamentally different than the Tea Party dickheads who quickly just revealed themselves to be careerist politicians, plus the tea party was actually much less of any kind of true movement, rather drummed up by TV and big GOP spenders...it's not like people were lining up to go into basketball arenas like they were for trump

they were always whipping up these kind of people with financial backing you describe for sure - but i think there used to be a firewall of sorts like hey no one really believes this shit at the end of the day or gives a fuck if abortion is legal but we ride it out and keep reducing capital gains taxes and increasing the amount of gravel that can legally be in baby formula by .75%

What does "engaging in politics" mean? If it means engaging in elections and such, then with exceptions at the local level, I think disengaging from politics is probably for the best for everyone. None of these ghouls in higher positions of power have their constituents' needs at heart.

Milo, go run for school board or city council or something. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

I would say that I consider "engaging in politics" as paying attention as much as your psyche can handle and look for organizations and advocacy groups that align with your beliefs so you can donate your time and/or money.

Then we're in agreement about the basics, jvc!

Yeah I think I'm in agreement with a lot of people here! Which is why I was surprised by how hard milo was pushing back, but that partially just seems to be milo's thing at this point.

None of these ghouls in higher positions of power have their constituents' needs at heart.

Genuine question: Can you imagine the possibility that any (non-local) politician might have their constituents' needs at heart, or is the political system itself corrupted to the point that anyone who manages to attain higher office is necessarily compromised by what it took them to get there?

I cannot imagine it because I have never seen it.

I mean, I cannot think of a single holder of higher office who has half the integrity of some of the people who hold city council seats in Philly or Oakland, for example.

Which is why I was surprised by how hard milo was pushing back, but that partially just seems to be milo's thing at this point.

I pushed back because what I responded to was "people who seem to be very demonstrative in completely writing off the Biden presidency already instead of, y'know, making plans to continue pushing him."

This in an entirely different world from 'you should stay politically engaged,' where we're at now.

I'm not pissed about Biden, I'm depressed because other people are pissed about Biden.

Dunno if this question would be better-placed or worse- on the Biden thread, but: are you depressed because other people mention specific (if select) things Joe Biden says and does and has confidants leak, or by those things?

xpost - I guess I shouldn't have added the "him" at the end, which is where I think the issue got twisted and amplified in a different direction from what I intended. My original post was in response to waking up, scrolling through Twitter and seeing three different tweets from three different people that were each essentially, "I'm so fucking pissed off about Biden's names so far that I'm going to just give up and be ready for 2024". Which reads to me as an intent, even if, as I suspect, it's an empty threat borne out of understandable real anger, to disassociate from politics completely until then. Which, as I was saying, is decidedly not the answer. We need people to keep pushing. I'd love to see Biden get nudged left as a result (which I still think might happen on a few issues, with the right public pressure and Congress members working hard), but the entire part needs to be pushed now and next year and in 2024. Not just in election years.

"entire party"

once you 'give up' on Diamond Joe, you can focus your energy on "pushing politics left" in areas where you have agency.

I don't agree that 'giving up' on Biden is a necessary precondition to working where you have the most agency, but trying to "push Biden left" by any method other than 'pushing politics left in areas where you have agency' would show a misunderstanding of where one's real leverage is (unless you are in Biden's cabinet or a leadership position in Congress). I think we are in near-complete agreement here.

for most people choosing between "giving up" on biden or "pushing biden" left just means what type of tweets they are gonna write

xpost u could c+p the text of a milo post and he would still find a way to disagree with it tho (luv u boo)