Being a socialist, a radical, or an anarchist is not the same as 'bitching loudly on the internet every day'.

Jim in Van, nice to know someone else here reads and thinks about Desert.

milo what has your dsa experience generally been like?

The idea that Katherine would be crafting assumptions about sexism in political organisations instead of recognizing sexism exists in all spheres of society is exactly why someone like Katherine might be intimidated.

this kind of denial and/or defensiveness is nagl & way too familiar

I also said upthread that it isn't about sexism, per se, it's about people whose politics are based on contempt and making fun of people for things they deem cringeworthy

(for instance, there are people like this who aren't men; maybe fewer, but definitely nowhere near none)

I was initially thrown by the use of "blackpill" as I associate it with incel nihilism, but I get that it can be expanded to cover other stuff. I am surprised that so many people are playing it like they don't understand what katherine's describing at all. Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

otm!

Sorry Katherine for interpreting it all as sexism and not reading thoroughly.

and yes, the dirtbag left is extremely repulsive.

anything left out here (mountain west) is slim pickings, my expectations are adjusted accordingly, but like rich salt lake liberals aren't gonna work for me as pals, you know. i've brushed up against a few and blech. maybe i just want to meet some people in slc who aren't rah-rah capitalists, who might have some class consciousness. they're everywhere in all your cities but our 'alts' here are all libertarians. i work in government i'm used to not actually getting anything accomplished. i wouldn't mind just meeting every once in a while for half a year in order to plan on picking that one (1) low-hanging fruit.

who am i kidding political people are probably just as tiresome as the skin-deep small-time capitalist instagram hipsters i felt like an alien among when i was trying to dj.

t/s: shitty men in the electronic music underground vs. shitty men in leftist politics

(should also note it doesn't just extend to joining or not joining organizations; I have a few friends and one close friend, for instance, who have shown signs of being like this, and as a result I don't fully trust them and probably never will)

personal animus towards wrongthinkers is certainly a lot more accessible than meaningful solidarity in a hyper atomized society there's no question about that

(see also message boards)

omg

Not sure if I'm misreading you Simon, but what katherine describes is not simply ascribable to "personal animus towards wrongthinkers" - there are solid reasons to be wary of this sort of person (see also: sexual assault in Novara circles).

blanket suspicion of 'a sort of person' rather than case by case differentiation strikes me as unhelpful at best, dangerous at worst?

like, a certain amount of circumspection probably a good idea in any social situation, dunno why the DSA requires anything extra

milo what has your dsa experience generally been like?

Initially, with the local group established post-Bernie, it was a reading and discussion group, fine but essentially just a social group for confused people interested in the left.

Over the last couple of years it has grown into mutual aid (community garden seminars, a ‘community fridge’ mini-food bank post-COVID, etc.), an emphasis on anti-ICE actions (neighborhood walks with cards about rights like the old ACLU bust cards), couple of small fix-it ticket events (fixing bulbs out on cars). Some local candidate endorsements this time around.

The most recent Zoom talk was on toxic masculinity. I skip most of the meetings and talks because I hate Zoom, I’m fine waiting until in-person activities can resume.

I do not disbelieve bad behavior happens or that some members are assholes, but I will reiterate that you can’t dismiss the entire organization because of bad Twitter people or know that your local comprises bad people unless you go to a meeting. Short of that you’re just saying “I don’t wanna” - which is a perfectly fine reason to not do something.

I mean Trump supporters sure w/e but these are people who ostensibly give a shit about humanity

I don't agree with the principle that nobody should join DSA b/c there's a shitty type of leftist dude who might be there. I do think it's absolutely fine (and kind of necessary) for an individual to express that this type of leftist dude seriously puts them off getting involved.

xxp

Do love that this bullshit thread title/premise has been upended hy good discourse and action itt

(no sarc...)

that's fair, but surely the solution is to join and cause a fuss about the culture, that's how things improve

I'm not dismissing the entire organization, just saying that it is likely that I would regularly come into contact with at least some assholes who probably are connected to other assholes

lol you are a ho xp to imago

oh like earth xp

Not if you don't feel safe enough to do that! Or even confident enough, or hell, motivated enough.

On a completely different note, I find it weird that I've just incorporated "leftist" into my vocabulary.

xxxp

xp - given the direction this conversation has gone I have zero confidence in my "causing a fuss about the culture" doing anything but getting mocked

thanks for sharing your experience milo

serious qualms about shitty endemic behaviour should and I hope will always be taken seriously in any leftist organisation worth the name

have there been recent DSA sexism dustups? I don't hear about this stuff anymore since I quit twitter

I should say 'sexism/harrassment/assault/etc'

it’s fine to dismiss an entire org because of shit experiences esp when the reaction to raising them is this kind of thing

except the part where I said I wasn't doing that? jesus christ

i don't read it as sarcastic.

xp I was going off the suggestion from another post above. I’m sorry if I implied it was your position. it’s not sarcastic though

got it, apologeis

*apologies

but surely the solution is to join and cause a fuss about the culture, that's how things improve

― imago, Friday, November 13, 2020 1:40 PM (yesterday)

hahaha that is the classic hetero cis-white guy response! ... this is why the term "emotional labor" is so common in the QTPOC left, as well as the focus on organizing amongst themselves where they are at the front, as opposed to waiting for the cis-white men (and women sometimes) to STFU.

not saying anyone has to, but wouldn't you have to join first to know?

You don't need to join a group to anticipate how its culture will be affecting you, especially in cases like the very vocal and very web-present dirtbag left.

web-present would be the important part, no?

ie

it’s fine to dismiss an entire org because of shit experiences esp when the reaction to raising them is this kind of thing

No one has described "shit experiences" with their local DSA or any related organization, AFAICT? There's an assumption that these bad people online would be pervasive in this entirely unconnected organization.

You don't need to join a group to anticipate how its culture will be affecting you, especially in cases like the very vocal and very web-present dirtbag left.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 14 November 2020 23:21 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

it seems a bit far to literally say that this organisation specifically is unsafe though don't you think?

Arguing that a very vocal online presence associated with a political persuasion wouldn't necessarily be present at IRL meetings associated with that political persuasion is more of a stretch, IMHO.

Like if some DSA dude harassed my friend online, I'd be pretty loathe to go to my local DSA for the first time. Don't really understand why that's so hard to grasp.

and there are plenty of progressive / left groups and causes to participate in that aren't the DSA. Like ... this argument just feels kinda absurd to me at this point.

but surely those would also be unsafe?

associated with a political persuasion

some DSA dude harassed my friend online

This is the assumption that I'm referring to. There hasn't even been an accusation that "DSA dudes" harassed anyone's friends, but that's the thread being run with?

Like if some DSA dude harassed my friend online, I'd be pretty loathe to go to my local DSA for the first time. Don't really understand why that's so hard to grasp.

― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 15 November 2020 00:20 (twenty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

but all that was claimed was that people, who might be the kind of people to go to a dsa meeting because they have leftist opinions, would be there and subsequently it was implied that it was unsafe.

I guess I didn't take it that way. I took it as 'some DSA-associated people harassed my friend, and I don't feel good going to a DSA meeting as a result.'

but surely those would also be unsafe?

― plax (ico), Saturday, November 14, 2020 4:35 PM (thirty-eight minutes ago)

not necessarily, there are plenty of groups that don't have "those dudes" in them because they were formed by people who didn't want to have to deal with "those dudes"