Being a socialist, a radical, or an anarchist is not the same as 'bitching loudly on the internet every day'.

outside of the Blackpill Caucus of course

i'll be sure to report here if i encounter any blackpilled irony bros

this is not my experience

but mocking someone for avoiding, for my own safety, people who are somewhere on the spectrum between contemptful and dangerous is really changing my mind, gotta say

I'm certain there are sexist assholes of all stripes in DSA but I have yet to be convinced they're any more common than in any other political formation (though of course it is more galling/infuriating when it comes from a left org). which is not to say anyone should have to put up with it if they don't want to.

My main issue is that a majority of the DSA people I know are white and have a real fucking hard-on for telling Black people to sit down because it's all about class. Whatever their intentions, that shit is toxic and I want no part of it.

this is a very specific subcategory of asshole (and it isn't about sexism, per se, although if a person's first political principle is contempt and cringe then sexism could follow pretty easily, and I'm not sure what else they'd join except I guess alt-right shit

tbf, maybe I'm reading your posts wrong but your argument is starting to sound quite paranoid

My main issue is that a majority of the DSA people I know are white and have a real fucking hard-on for telling Black people to sit down because it's all about class. Whatever their intentions, that shit is toxic and I want no part of it.

― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Friday, November 13, 2020 10:51 AM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is a very specific subcategory of asshole (and it isn't about sexism, per se, although if a person's first political principle is contempt and cringe then sexism could follow pretty easily, and I'm not sure what else they'd join except I guess alt-right shit

― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Friday, November 13, 2020 10:53 AM (forty-six minutes ago)

yeah ... the thing with political activism in groups, for me, is that the interpersonal element ends up getting in the way of the activism. I spent decades doing arts organizing and a lot of the same issues come into play, except it's more serious, because it's politics, as opposed to a neighborhood art walk.

This is one of the problems with grassroots organizing that otherwise is something I like. I feel like it's growing pains, in a way, (hopefully) and that these groups will get better in terms of not being radical LARP-ing for white philosophy bros. Though it sounds like some of y'all have had good experiences, so it doesn't sound like something to be dismissed out of hand.

It's been almost 4 years since "The Fire" but I still remember the various attempts at organizing and it was really instructive for me ... mostly on a personal level to figure out what I wanted to get involved in, who I wanted to support. I am drawn to the "people that do things" vs. those that have meetings and talk about it and want the ideal perfect thing that doesn't end up happening. And I don't want to be dismissive of people drawn to the latter type of groups. I realize now that a lot of it is my personality.

i'm sure i'll meet annoying people in the mutual aid group but might also deliver some warm clothes or something. also it's like once a month. maybe it will suck as much as this thread? won't know until i try it.

― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Friday, November 13, 2020 8:55 AM (three hours ago)

I'm actually kinda curious what leftist mutual aid groups are like in SLC, because (as you know, but not necessarily other ilxors do) there's that aspect kinda built into Mormon culture, like maybe in SLC it will be more chill.

tbf, maybe I'm reading your posts wrong but your argument is starting to sound quite paranoid

― plax (ico), Friday, November 13, 2020 2:26 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

have you seriously never encountered any of these people

(what I do instead is donate which seems to be the next best thing, directly to people organizing stuff if I can)

your argument, and maybe i'm misreading you, is that you would like to join the dsa but "for (your) safety" cannot, because of some of the people who are members. This seems like a really strong allegation to make about this organisation, that it is literally unsafe to join. I'm not trying to suggest that you *have to join* or anything. there's lots of things i know i probably wouldn't enjoy for whatever reason, but this seems pretty strong.

Have you encountered them at DSA meetings, though? People you don’t like online who you assume would join the DSA doesn’t mean your local DSA chapter would actually resemble that.

My local was formed by a 9/11 truther who had to be put out to pasture. It’s not going to be perfect. But I’m going to wager that a group dedicated to the possibility of positive (primarily electoral) change would be overwhelmed with blackpilled nihilists who specifically reject the possibility of positive change.

would not be overwhelmed*

Likewise, the largest DSA chapter is the one that canceled on Adolph Reed for being a ‘class reductionist,’ so “they’re just class reductionists selling Jacobin” might not hold up to closer scrutiny!

i don't know what blackpilled means but i googled it and it sounds like its about incels and i though that was all v alt right

maybe "doomers" is a better word

but also like sorry to not want to hang out with people who call my friends fat and ugly?

blackpilled as a metaphor more generally means becoming depressed and suicidal about the state of things and ones inability to see light at the end of the tunnel

xp ok i have no idea what yr talking about

My local was formed by a 9/11 truther who had to be put out to pasture.

hahahah :( .... yeah, I think we might all be on the same page re the dynamics ... and some people might not want to engage until the "putting out to pasture" has been accomplished? idk really.

xps are your friends dsa members?

I don't think it matters all that much if any one person joins the DSA - for the vast majority it's going to be symbolic (especially until a chapter is large enough to organize action... and even then you're talking about outreach more than change), you're doing more 'work' volunteering at a food bank once a month.

If you attend a meeting and they're assholes, fair enough - but you don't know that until you attend one?

no, but my friends have been harassed by this specific category of extremely online irony bro

fraternities do volunteer work too, doesn't mean I want to be buddies with frat boys

blackpilled seemed to gain traction when Donald Trump won and some of the saddos that voted for him realized that he wasn't going to do a fascism. being blackpilled meant losing faith, as an alt-right guy, in the electoral process to make any real significant change, and either getting into the mindset to do a mass-shooting, or else retreat from society. people use it to describe left-wing people who have lost faith in the electoral process, and/or left-wing movements to make real significant change, but aren't looking to do a mass-shooting, though they may be looking to retreat from society. my wife calls me blackballed because of how cynical I am about politics (and because I like reading Jacques Camatte and Desert)

lol, damn autocorrect

this is veering quite close to 'all zoomers are bad people' or at the very least 'zoomers can't be trusted' imo

how much more do I have to mention the words "specific category" before it gets read

no, but my friends have been harassed by this specific category of extremely online irony bro

Are these extremely online irony bros DSA leaders? Members? Part of your local chapter?

tbh, you should not join the DSA because you're not comfortable with it and no part of this matters enough to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. But you appear to be crafting assumptions ("I'm not sure what else they'd join") based on people you don't like on Twitter.

I understand what you're getting at Katherine. It's a real thing that happens.

pardon me for making the wild assumption that people who identify as leftists might join leftist organizations

so you don't like leftists? I'm sorry it's not at all clear to me what you mean.

I’m not in the DSA or even the USA and I’m pretty familiar with these types, they come in all flavours of political identification ime but no one should be denying they exist in left circles. there is a noisy faction online that appears to be DSA affiliated. I don’t get how the doomer/blackpill thing is related but then I’m not american

how much more do I have to mention the words "specific category" before it gets read

― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Friday, November 13, 2020 3:54 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

They might join no organization (most likely), or they might join some Trot or Maoist group or the SPUSA (doubtful, RIP) or whatever.

The DSA is over 75k members now, a scattering of people on Twitter is a terrible way to assess that membership.

i thought doomer leftists sneered at the DSA now too tbh, but i could be mistaken because there’s always the chance my perception has become distorted however slightly by the literally poisonous nightmare machine the plutes have given me to look at the outside world thru.

xp.

given that there have been frequent reports, as above, of sexual harassment, white guys talking over everyone else, etc. that it does not seem like I am near a miraculous enclave of people whose hearts are in the right place, or exist at all

Jim in Van, nice to know someone else here reads and thinks about Desert.

milo what has your dsa experience generally been like?

The idea that Katherine would be crafting assumptions about sexism in political organisations instead of recognizing sexism exists in all spheres of society is exactly why someone like Katherine might be intimidated.

this kind of denial and/or defensiveness is nagl & way too familiar

I also said upthread that it isn't about sexism, per se, it's about people whose politics are based on contempt and making fun of people for things they deem cringeworthy

(for instance, there are people like this who aren't men; maybe fewer, but definitely nowhere near none)

I was initially thrown by the use of "blackpill" as I associate it with incel nihilism, but I get that it can be expanded to cover other stuff. I am surprised that so many people are playing it like they don't understand what katherine's describing at all. Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

otm!

Sorry Katherine for interpreting it all as sexism and not reading thoroughly.

and yes, the dirtbag left is extremely repulsive.

anything left out here (mountain west) is slim pickings, my expectations are adjusted accordingly, but like rich salt lake liberals aren't gonna work for me as pals, you know. i've brushed up against a few and blech. maybe i just want to meet some people in slc who aren't rah-rah capitalists, who might have some class consciousness. they're everywhere in all your cities but our 'alts' here are all libertarians. i work in government i'm used to not actually getting anything accomplished. i wouldn't mind just meeting every once in a while for half a year in order to plan on picking that one (1) low-hanging fruit.

who am i kidding political people are probably just as tiresome as the skin-deep small-time capitalist instagram hipsters i felt like an alien among when i was trying to dj.

t/s: shitty men in the electronic music underground vs. shitty men in leftist politics