Thread of What Is Fascism And Is Donald Trump A Fascist

Can you define your terms, map? Right now it's looking like you're saying that fascism isn't "full fascism" until it leads to organized genocide.

― Lily Dale, Tuesday, November 10, 2020 12:15 AM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

that is what i'm saying, yes.

i actually don't know much about the subject lol, would love to read more though.

It's deliberately provocative and by no means a work of non-fiction, but as a complement to Austerlitz, Jonathan Littell's The Kindly Ones, told from the perspective of a former SS officer who got off scot free, drives home the bureaucratic precision with which the Shoah was carried out to an almost nauseating degree.

ok, show me genocides that happened without some kind of administrative competence behind them xp

while your posts are excellent, the Cambodian genocide during the 4 years of DK rule was not particularly well-organized. Yes, Tuol Sleung kept meticulous records, that is true. But there was also just wanton "cadres arrive in the village, kill everybody who won't sign up" energy.

if that's the case, then does it really matter if something is truly fascism? once you reach a certain level of authoritarian, who cares about the underlying philosophy?

xxp

and much of this energy was absolutely directed at specific populations -- Muslim especially -- and seems to have been done without directives in place on any more than a "you know who to get" basis

Same with Rwanda

Disclaimer: I'm not particularly worried that either of these things will happen. But I do think either of these things *could* happen. One, Trump supporters (or, hell, one Trump supporter) could go nuts and start shooting, requiring a Biden admin to send in armed whomever in response, and two, something terrible happens to Biden. Both events would play in to right wing conspiracy theories and make those people even crazier and the country seriously unstable, which would create a power vacuum that a "law and order" person could exploit.

and Indonesia, no? xp

is it too obvious or not obvious enough that genocide is already foundational to & still performed by US & its neighbours ?

call it colonialism instead of fascism if you want but it’s part of the same thing. the bureaucracy & infrastructure which hitler admired so much already/still exists. trumpism never needed to be revolutionary

Indonesia in 65 was pretty well orchestrated by US intelligence. There's a reason why 'Jakarta is coming' was a slogan that the right used against the left in 70s and 80s S. and Central American regimes.

Rwanda a different story, Srebenica too.

Left otm

you don't have to be competent to be a fascist, and the ones who seem like blundering fools are still very, very dangerous. thinking of BlacKkKlansman which was kind of about this.

blundering fools with guns are dangerous, fascist or not.

Yes.

Man what the hell was actually motivating the “too incompetent to be fascist”

the “too incompetent to be fascist” takes.

ahistorical borderline apologist shit about trains running on time etc

all the fixed definitions just miss the point dangerously hard

ofc trump is a fascist. america is fascist. europe is fascist

if we want fascism to not have a meaning then sure

how's that

Oh come the fuck on, the US is a settler colony that commits genocides and coups elsewhere in the world to maintain it's economic interests all while upholding itself as a beacon of freedom and denying those who would ever critique it in a substantive way.

The US is and has been fascist.

the "he seems to be ok with democracy" posts here have not aged well

I rather think it was other items in ilx poster lefts post that caused jim to snort tbf

I'm fascist Spartacus

People are surprised, they become indignant. They say: "How strange! But never
mind-it's Nazism, it will. pass!" And they wait, and they hope; and they hide the truth from
themselves, that it is barbarism, but the supreme barbarism, the crowning barbarism that
sums up all the daily barbarisms; that it is Nazism, yes, but that before they were its
victims, they were its accomplices; that they tolerated that Nazism before it was inflicted
on them, that they absolved it, shut their eyes to it, legitimized it, because, until then, it
had been applied only to non-European peoples; that they have cultivated that Nazism,
that they are responsible for it, and that before engulfing the whole of Western, Christian
civilization in its reddened waters, it oozes, seeps, and trickles from every crack.

What am I driving at? At this idea: that no one colonizes innocently, that no one
colonizes with impunity either; that a nation which colonizes, that a civilization which
justifies colonization - and therefore force - is already a sick civilization, a civilization that is
morally diseased, that irresistibly, progressing from one consequence to another, one
repudiation to another, calls for its Hitler, I mean its punishment.

https://b-ok.cc/book/834691/7bf6cb?dsource=recommend

Césaire OTM, always OTM afaic.

it's easy to look back in 2016 through the lens of 2021, but despite all of the troubling things he said/did in the lead-up to the election, in modern times, we couldn't really comprehend an autocratic leader like Trump. those of us, at least, who have never lived under one.

I was afraid as hell of him and I laid up scared at night when he won but I didn't foresee this. but there are things now I didn't have a clue about 4 years ago

I mean, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but understanding an autocratic leader like Trump isn't that difficult.

It's understanding the people who want an autocratic leader like Trump that did me in during 2016, and while it doesn't do me in now in the same way, it remains disheartening to say the least

Politics are big and confusing and scary, and a lot of people choose not to think about them in any way. Some people find relief in surrendering their thought to an external service provider.

it's easy to look back in 2016 through the lens of 2021, but despite all of the troubling things he said/did in the lead-up to the election, in modern times, we couldn't really comprehend an autocratic leader like Trump. those of us, at least, who have never lived under one.

I have been saying that Trump would be a fucking disaster since before he was elected, even when I didn’t think he would win. No rational minority in this country is surprised by this shitshow; we are only surprised it didn’t happen to Obama.

I mean I knew he'd be a disaster, and was terrified of him winning, but I didn't expect "former reality TV star succeeds in getting minions to break into Senate building" on Nov 9th, 2016

i think a lot of things would be clearer/less blinkered about mainstream american political conversations come from the generic familiarity and blandness (tho not meaninglessness) of the two party names. if we had a multi-party system and/or continental party naming tendencies, and could see regularly how many reps and senators hailed from the straight up Patriot Strength Party or National Christian Conservative Homeland Party or whatever shit it would be called....

Or you could just be Black

Matt Goodwin is busy deleting tweets. pic.twitter.com/R5BoVL5DyY

— Luke Dyks (@LukeDyks) January 6, 2021

He should eat them

@ DJP - fair!

In case you were wondering: yes, yes he is.

I thought this was really good and expresses a lot of things I have felt but found difficult to put together.

http://newpol.org/is-it-still-fascism-if-its-incompetent/

This is inchoate fascism, fascism in its experimental, speculative phase, in which is forming a coalition of minoritarian popular forces with elements in the executive and the repressive wing of the state. It would be devastatingly stupid, complacent beyond belief, to expect US democracy to remain sufficiently stable in the coming years to deny this incipient fascism more opportunities to congeal, and grow.

from 1994:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v16/n07/edward-luttwak/why-fascism-is-the-wave-of-the-future

I hate the term 'gaslighting' because I can never remember what it means. I wish there was a good trick using the visual cues of gas and lighting to help me remember; but I can't find a memorable connection of the cues and "sowing seeds of doubt to manipulate a targeted individual/group".

Maybe a part of the problem is that people on the internet don't always use 'gaslighting' correctly.

lmgtfy

I hate the term 'gaslighting' because I can never remember what it means.

never seen this term before, are you sure you're ok

lol

Very few if any such terms had much use to begin with except as shorthand for one person to miscommunicate to another, widespread use aint helped

IMO you've just described language

"gaslighting" is an extremely useful and important term, especially for people who have been the victim of it!

a mnemonic device will probably remain elusive, since it's based on the title/plot details of a play about this form of abuse.

gaslighting is a useful term.

unfortunately it's now been co-opted on the net to mean "you are disagreeing with me".

but actual forms of gaslighting should be called out as such.

This discussion of Adorno’s writing on the Authoritarian Personality seems both helpful and relevant: https://leftanchor.podbean.com/e/episode-53-adorno-on-the-psychology-of-fascism/

in the US they called that play Angel Street.

glad it's not called "angelstreeting"