What are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Flaws?

It’s not even about being nice to centrists, it’s about making a positive case for why your policies are better (which should be really easy to do because they are) rather than performative self-flagellation disguised as shitting on everyone around you

I think sometimes our contention as less to do with goals, all in all there is more common ground than anything, and more to do with how we get there.

Aka ILX's raison d'être.

performative self-flagellation disguised as shitting on everyone around you

You've got this backwards; the shitting on everyone else is the real purpose.

Thunberg (has) been successful...

I think she'd dispute this

jesus

Her role is not to fix climate change herself on her own, but to raise awareness and action and in that regard she has been extremely succesful.

DJP, the only reason I tend to go more toward Simon's side is that the case has already been made for many of the policies that would help people, such as a $15 (or $20, which it should be by all rights) minimum wage, universal health care, building up mass transit and infrastructure, cleaner energy solutions, etc. Arguments for these policies have existed for a long time, and yet progress on them has been incremental at best and completely oppositional at worst.

So, at a certain point, having people tell me to "argue my case with positive solutions" when that's what I've been doing for most of my adult life is *incredibly frustrating.*

If you are frustrated that people don’t see the Light of your Obviously Much Better policies then yeah that’s a problem.

performative self-flagellation disguised as shitting on everyone around you

You've got this backwards; the shitting on everyone else is the real purpose.

to be clear, I have some differences of opinion w a bunch of you but I don't wish ill on anyone (on this board). but I react negatively to dogma, too.

The other night I was discussing similar issues with a friend, who was saying that the left is at fault for not reaching out to religious people or those in rural areas, and I was like, "look, while I agree with you in spirit, having to continually make my case to people who have never met me halfway on anything is a bit of a fool's errand."

If you are frustrated that people don’t see the Light of your Obviously Much Better policies then yeah that’s a problem.

― Van Horn Street, Sunday, November 8, 2020 8:42 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

You obviously can't read.

I think some proselyting is impossible as well, when you made it clear that restricting abortion is the political hill you'll die on, it's a difference of opinion that can only be resolved at the ballot.

Her role is not to fix climate change herself on her own, but to raise awareness and action and in that regard she has been extremely successful.

of course no one can fix anything on their own but I think if you asked her you'd find the goal of the environmental movement is to reduce or eliminate emissions, not merely "raise awareness" of them. and in that sense it is premature to call the movement a successful one imho

of course no one can fix anything on their own but I think if you asked her you'd find the goal of the environmental movement is to reduce or eliminate emissions, not merely "raise awareness" of them. and in that sense it is premature to call the movement a successful one imho

raising awareness is the necessary first step!

this turns 15 next year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth

"I’m pretty comfortable not deriving joy from the guy who has played a leading role in ruining millions of lives over the past five decades.

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, November 7, 2020 3:22 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
If Joe Biden is the best thing you got going in your life let me know I’ll send you an edible arrangement or something to try to lend you a little sunshine

― The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, November 7"

For the 1000th time, it's about Trump losing not Biden winning

this turns 15 next year

and obviously it wasn't enough for a large part of the electorate.

I have no idea how anyone could have more than a smidgeon of faith in our parasitic species. Dante's 'Abandon all hope, etc.' is not at all how I picture Hell: hopelessness – which is not quite the same thing as despair – strikes me as less masochistic than the refusal to accept our essential brokenness in a world where we are all doomed to suffering and death from the outset and for no legitimate reason. Making do with the little we have is our best, and only, chance.

I never said anything about abortion here, to my knowledge.

There is widespread support for many of the policies I mentioned above. Afaict, the issue isn't actually "talking to people about the issues." People want a higher minimum wage! Free good healthcare! Better infrastructure! The issue is actually that some people have unswerving faith in the integrity of a political system that is clearly rotten, and some people don't see it that way because that system has consistently shut down anything that would trouble its center of power, which is a system of oaths and loyalties to capital and concerns of multinational corporations' CEOs.

I'm using abortion as an example.

VHS and Aimless: But you see, the voters simply aren't ready for that, since they haven't elected people willing to support those policies.

Us: But we've been making the same points for decades, and you've been saying the same thing. The people support these policies, it's just that politicians don't care about their constituents, merely consolidating their own power.

VHS and Aimless: You need to make your points more friendly, you obviously aren't doing a good job.

Us: Wtf.

There is widespread support for many of the policies I mentioned above. Afaict, the issue isn't actually "talking to people about the issues." People want a higher minimum wage! Free good healthcare! Better infrastructure! The issue is actually that some people have unswerving faith in the integrity of a political system that is clearly rotten, and some people don't see it that way because that system has consistently shut down anything that would trouble its center of power, which is a system of oaths and loyalties to capital and concerns of multinational corporations' CEOs.

First, the US is not yet a complete libertarian state and progress, great important progress has been achieved in the US over the past few decades. Obviously, none of it is enough. However, don't call it hopeless when there has been these victories.

Second, americans have voted for neoliberalism. Over and over they made the choice of neoliberalism. From 1980 to arguably 2008, people have constantly voted for neoliberal policies. They did again in 2016. It stands to reason that neoliberal policies are still rather central to this day, but it need not be in the future. Some places have voted for increased minimum wage to great benefit, as mentioned above single payer is gaining steam, drugs are getting decriminalized, there is more and more diversity in politics, etc.

Simon, wouldn’t energy be better spent on trying convincing people who vote for those centrist than to just add to the animosity by shitting on those same politicians?

it's worth clarifying that in meatspace I'm perfectly happy to, for instance, join the NDP and vote in leadership elections, donate etc even though they absolutely suck shit in a million different ways. (OK, "happy" is overstating it.) I'm not of the "nothing matters lol" school of thought. but I also see no value in sugarcoating.

to bring it back to AOC, I hope a lot of Dem voters read that interview and really reckon with how rotten the Party machinery is (whether by design or through sheer ineptitude) to the extent that even someone as skilled, motivated and influential as she is acknowledges that it's a very real possibility that substantive policy change might still be off the table despite progressives' electoral advancements and crucial support.

I think maybe the big fallacy I'm opposing is the widespread support of these policies, it exists now but it is relatively new and since democracy is slow by nature (even more so when you share the country with Trump voters), it's normal they aren't all implemented yet.

Us: ...The people support these policies, it's just that politicians don't care about their constituents, merely consolidating their own power.

VHS and Aimless: You need to make your points more friendly, you obviously aren't doing a good job.

Aimless: Then find better politicians and elect them. And, yes, it isn't as easy as it sounds, but if, as you say, "the people support these policies" you've already got all the support you need to win. Surely somewhere among all these supporters you can find someone capable who is willing to run.

I was saying to my husband last night that we need to make certain that leaders like AOC and Ilhan Omar get support and that we continue to elect more and more like them— there is no revolution coming, and they are, in fact, our only hope in terms of electoral politics.

But seeing as how they're kneecapped by members of their own party at every turn, I'm not too hopeful.

And VHS, while you're right in a certain way, I think that part of what I'm arguing is that *THIS ISN'T NORMAL.* It's a depravity that's been normalized, but letting people die because they lack health insurance or starve because their full-time job can't put food on the table isn't normal.

But seeing as how they're kneecapped by members of their own party at every turn, I'm not too hopeful.

Pelosi supported Omar in a primary, I think the kneecaping is a bit much.

And VHS, while you're right in a certain way, I think that part of what I'm arguing is that *THIS ISN'T NORMAL.* It's a depravity that's been normalized, but letting people die because they lack health insurance or starve because their full-time job can't put food on the table isn't normal.

And I don’t think it’s normal too, but 70 millions people voted for Trump so what is normal I don’t know. The goal now is to make sure it isn’t normalized and as some of you said elsewhere some progressive do a good job of it. Like if you take a second to think about it, it should generate a bit of whiplash to think the Dems went from Kerry to someone proposing a public option within 15 years.

I feel like AOC has talked about why a public option is risky, I'll try to find it.

btw, going back to yesterday and that tweet from Karen Whatshername that milo c&p'd into the thread and I was responding to:

No, I didn't see anything other than the text of the tweet. I didn't click through to see that it was a response to AOC, or read what AOC had tweeted that Karen was responding to. If I want to suck Twitter directly into my system, I'll join Twitter. I can see how others assuming I was somehow following AOC on Twitter would have made my response appear differently intended. That's a very unwarranted assumption, but natural enough if you live in the political Twittersphere. I can't be responsible for bad assumptions that are not revealed.

Whatever, dudes

It’s not even about being nice to centrists, it’s about making a positive case for why your policies are better (which should be really easy to do because they are) rather than performative self-flagellation disguised as shitting on everyone around you

― DJP, Sunday, November 8, 2020 10:31 AM (fifty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Holy cow, does this ever need to be pinned to the top of every dem-centric politics discussion on this board. AOC is saying much of the same shit that some of the more (vocally) leftist posters here say but she's able to say it in a way that's coalition-building rather than self-satisfied echo chamber sniping that's likely to turn off even those people who already like 90% agree with her. It's a lesson worth paying some attention to.

self-satisfied echo chamber sniping

this is also known as "posting" and everyone on ILX does it

or at the very least, the leftists do not hold anything approaching a monopoly

I’m definitely not a leftist btw

Maybe we aren’t talking about me anymore

I wouldn’t hold myself out as one anyway

Rob’s post is the one that wants pinning imo

It's pretty amazing that milo and silby still can't see that almost no one here is excited about Biden winning so much as Trump losing and that most people simply want to spend 24-72 hours drinking from the punchbowl of schadenfreude before two leftist edgelords take a dump in it.

self-satisfied echo chamber sniping that's likely to turn off even those people who already like 90% agree with her. It's a lesson worth paying some attention to.

Sounds like you and the person you're quoting could do to pay some attention to that lesson yourselves

oh hey it's trevor

milo is tempbanned so “still” in his case is assuming facts not in evidence

Excellent use of the “I’m rubber, you’re glue” rhetorical gambit

Cuz the discourse was o so elevated to begin with

I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?
I know you are but what am I?

Four Seasons Total Landscaping

Tempbanning milo is dumb and wrong

wasn't it due to FPs? Admin log makes no mention of a banning, just a yellow card.

here we go, AOC on the (potential) perils of the public option here on The Breakfast Club:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwhaXHqxoc

(if the timestamp doesn't work, it starts around 52:30)

I’ll have to post twice as much to fill the void obviously (I seriously don’t have time I am moving on Saturday and I have to pack ffffffff)

It’s good to know that you think a Black poster telling White posters that agree with him politically that he’s tired of being told that any incremental change that makes his life less dangerous is de facto bad because he’s not the right kind of Black person is juvenile and childish.