Is ADHD a real disorder?

you know whats tough to do when you got the ol adhd

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feel like it's been so bad recently that i've upgraded from adhd to ad4k

From what I've been seeing, the pandemic has messed with ADHD coping mechanisms to such a degree that many people have now become aware that they've always had ADHD brains but were decent at coping (and failing, and coping again) so just felt that this was how everyone functions - I mean, this is me too but I also kinda knew even if I did nothing overtly medical about it - I got really into yoga in my 30s and should prob get back into that and/or meds because omg I am V TIRED. AD4K for real.

this should be an opportunity to have a clean house and go to the gym all the time, things i had been failing at and blaming commuting and long days in the office/elsewhere for work. no it's just that i am permanently too too fatigued to do anything but was just forced to be 25% successful by routines that were imposed on me, but completely unable to establish any routines that are good (just bad, lazy ones) if left to my own devices.

feeling these recent posts

feel like it's been so bad recently that i've upgraded from adhd to ad4k

― TRANCED INTO RADIOACTIVE PUREE (Will M.), Tuesday, October 20, 2020 2:12 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

yep.

but completely unable to establish any routines that are good (just bad, lazy ones) if left to my own devices.

― superdeep borehole (harbl), Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:36 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

YEP

Slowly tapered off my meds (last filled in March) to the point where I haven't taken anything in months. Was surprised to discover that I had developed some mechanisms for chugging along without chemical aid, but that only lasted so long before the fog started setting back in. Getting more forgetful, mind wandering more easily, work is becoming more of a stressful juggling act. I probably need to contact my doc for a script, huh.

Really, the worst part of it all is that I used to write for like a minimum of an hour/day and I think I've sat down and written a total of one (1) time in the past 7+ months.

I am honestly surprised and shocked, though, that I've been able to maintain my old work schedule this whole time even when left more or less to my own devices. Without that my day-to-day would probably lose all coherence.

i was better at going to the gym when my commute in the evening was over an hour. i would go 4x a week, for like two years i was very successful at this. then i got a shorter commute for a year and somehow became more tired. now i have no commute and i make dumb excuses like "i'm too hungry." it's like i am only doing ok when i hate my schedule. that's why i am 10 lbs fatter. i'm going today though.

was also routinely going to bed by 9:45 back then, now it's like 11. not good, folks.

Sleep does really help. Though I am incapable of napping! I started reading How to Bullet Journal articles today, which I'm going to take as a good sign and not another pit of distraction haha

This past year, regardless of the pandemic, I've been really struggling with my ADHD (of which in my case used to be called simply ADD, but apparently they now call it "inattentive ADHD"). I'm just constantly flirting with self sabotage via having no ability to keep myself away from places like this or the general internet in the middle of juggling all sorts of deadlines and projects. Attempting to prevent myself from indulging those stimulation cravings is nearly painful as I try to slam the brakes on my impulses and simultaneously course correct my thinking to simply fucking follow through on the half written email or the piece of information I was supposed to finish calling up on the server. Any time I have to wait for said server to load or whatever might warrant like 5 seconds of "downtime" my junky brain wants to reward itself with a stimulation while I "wait". I'm just slipping into rabbit hole after rabbit hole. Even techniques like "write yourself a list to use to stay on track" can be like pulling teeth to complete, adding sad ironic layers to the madness. But I might be on a bit of an upswing lately... I've been feeling relatively less tortured by these distractions lat- OH shit look at the time gotta send something to the client sorry bye

I feel your pain Evan -- I have definitely found all the disruption of COVID has brought back some of my worse tendencies and made me feel overall more discombobulated and less organized. Very much relate to exactly the way you described that reward addiction (and of course, ILX aside, many sites are very much designed to take advantage of that). I find myself forgetting things more or losing track, or if not then just having this constant dread that I've lost track of something - an email I didn't read carefully, a call I forgot to calendar, a deadline approaching soon that I've forgotten (usually turns out not to be the case but I hate the feeling).

I never completely conquered these tendencies but I got a lot better at controlling them. One thing I have found is that it is almost useless to focus on the habits themselves, like every attempt I make to say "I will not look at facebook for one hour" tends to fail. And my theory about that is that, for me at least, there has to be some motivation to do it other than just "not look at facebook."

In fact, I do best when I don't focus on the habits at all, but on motivating myself to get something done or excel at something. When I find a way to do that (usually it has to be a combination of excitement about the prospect of success AND the fear of failure), and I thus *want* to get the thing(s) done, all the bad habits just naturally become more manageable without me focusing on them.

The only other thing I can say is that exercise, especially vigorous exercise, makes a huge, huge difference. But before COVID I had a great gym routine and I've had a hard time finding something I like as much that I can do at home or outside. I still do my best to exercise - I've been trying to alternate between bodyweight/dumbell days, runs, and long walks. Too many skipped days though.

was also routinely going to bed by 9:45 back then, now it's like 11. not good, folks.

― superdeep borehole (harbl), Tuesday, October 27, 2020 4:06 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is me except 11 was my good nights and nowadays 1 AM is very much in play.

i had been considering the possibility that i have undiagnosed adhd, but in trying some screeners it doesn't seem like it. there are a handful of items that are very acutely me--fidgety, attention easily redirected, tends to delay and/or procrastinate when starting a project, tends to finish people's sentences. but there are others that are not me at all--i'm really detail-oriented, i never lose anything, i can wait my turn and stay in my seat.

i guess i wish it were easier to quiet my mind at will but that's probably a common complaint.

A smart therapist gave me the insight that things like ILX and facebook and instagram and reddit and whatever else give you this sense of neverending work to be done -- that you can wind up feeling almost a need or responsibility to see if there's yet another response to yet another comment you made in turn demanding yet another comment - there's the reward aspect but there's also this false sense of importance and urgency created, I *need* to respond to whoever responded to me, I can't just let it drop.

but there are others that are not me at all--i'm really detail-oriented, i never lose anything, i can wait my turn and stay in my seat.

I think a lot of the online tests don't speak to "corrective behaviours" or coping mechanisms, hence the need for medical diagnosis with a pro with ADHD and its subtypes (if someone wants to go that route - I realize some people don't.) I am these things too, but they're entirely possible because of a kind of conscious programming, like I go through an order of operations to make sure I don't lose things, for instance. Even when I'm buying something with a debit card, I have a mantra going through my head "remember your card, remember your card, say thanks, take bags, etc."

And the part of ADD/ADHD about talking too much, fidgeting, nail biting, not paying complete attention, etc - all of these things are things I used to do as a kid/teen and was shamed for, so figured out ways to not do them or not do them so obviously. My mind is almost never quiet. Meditation feels like going to the dentist. Though on the topic of exercise, the best for me is rock climbing or bouldering - it's such a level of mind/body concentration that it quiets my mind and feels great at the same time.

oh yeah I can totally relate to "corrective behaviors" and corrective thought patterns like that. Tons of those.

I was diagnosed with ADD (or ADHD inattentive-type ) when I was a teen. Put me on Ritalin, which didn't make much of a difference because I wasn't actually trying to DO ANYTHING back then. I didn't care about doing good in school, so even if I was on the right kind of medicine, I wasn't applying myself toward anything. Stopped taking Ritalin after a year or two and just went about my life to mixed results.

I recently came across all this old paperwork where the psychiatrist was discussing my diagnosis and it hit me with stunning clarity - this is a huge part of why my life is still so ramshackle as I'm approaching 40. Now that I can see the connections between this diagnosis and my behavior and the things that are going on inside my brain, I really want to get back into treatment for it. I'm currently using all my medical money to pay for braces for my kid though. Some day.

Regarding ritalin though, I'm scared to try it. I also have a huge insomnia problem and I'm worried a stimulant could make that go badly.

― how's life, Wednesday, April 4, 2018 3:41 PM (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Jesus fucking christ. Not doing great with this. Never going to get into actual therapy. Anyone got any good self-help book recommendations?

i am also incapable of napping, no matter how tired i am. and this is me: Meditation feels like going to the dentist, i will never be capable of meditating or doing yoga. i am best at repetitive exercise that takes some technique i have to focus on and improvement that can be measured because i love measurements and numbers. i cannot clear the garbage in my head i can only count it!

i'm incapable of intentionally napping, but very capable of napping when watching something on tv that i'd like to be paying attention to.

i am also incapable of napping, no matter how tired i am. and this is me: Meditation feels like going to the dentist, i will never be capable of meditating or doing yoga. i am best at repetitive exercise that takes some technique i have to focus on and improvement that can be measured because i love measurements and numbers. i cannot clear the garbage in my head i can only count it!

― superdeep borehole (harbl), Wednesday, October 28, 2020 9:46 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This sounds like me too, hence lifting. I also found, however, that this made me hate running on a treadmill, because I obsessively watch the numbers and come up with little micro-goals that wind up demoralizing me and reducing my stamina rather than increasing it. Whereas if I just run outside in nice natural surroundings I do much better.

got diagnosed, explains a lot. i'd always felt 'lazy'. i'd also normalized a lot of traits and behaviors that have really impacted my life in a subtle way.

however, despite dabbling a handful of times in adderall and vyvanse which absolutely work for me, doc prescribed wellbutrin instead, which i am disappointed by as it doesn't seem to have any effect whatsoever

anyone else figure this out relatively late in life?

I've got an appointment to be evaluated for it a week from now; I'll let you know how it goes.

They make you fill out a form and send it to them in the mail (actual mail, not email) before your appointment, which seems like a fundamental flaw in the system.

I have a buddy who seems to have it pretty strongly, and the iPhone has def made it worse.. just constantly scrolling, even when you're trying to tell him something important

i think i had a propensity for it, but the internet induced the symptoms fully

good luck lily! if youre in the US, dont be surprised for the process to take months

Thanks! That's good to know. I'm not in a huge hurry, and I don't even really know if I would want to be medicated for it, but I really want to know if I have it.

xp I got rid of my smartphone a couple of years ago, and then I would spend a lot of time away from the house so as not to have internet. It worked okay until the pandemic hit and I was home with my computer all the time.

I tapered off the last of my meds last spring before I knew the pandemic was going to last forever, so if there were any lingering doubts as to whether my own ADD is real, they've been put to bed by the slow dissolution of my attentive faculties over the past 1.5. I'm so goddamn distractable now, listless, indecisive, only capable of working very short stretches before I get like a cranky baby needing some other source of stimulus. Forgetting stuff that I didn't used to forget, letting important things go I didn't used to let go (like, oh I don't know, contacting my doctor to get my rx refilled?), etc. Yes, I'm sure general COVID psychosis is a factor just like it is for everyone, but I can see now how much progress I'd made with the regular therapy and meds and I'm a little concerned about how much work I may need to do to get back to where I was. Because it's the starting and the sticking with it that's the real sunovabitch with respect to ADD.

I have this kind and everything I do takes ten times as long as it should as a result:

https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/symptoms-of-inattentive-adhd/

I suspect that's what I have as well. The advice about changing the view - that's what I always used to do in order to get anything done, and not being able to just leave the house and go to a coffee shop has really destroyed my ability to work.

A friend did one of the online ADHD prescription things but they can't give you the good meth apparently, which seems kind of pointless.

My kid has always suffered with pretty extreme anxiety and we've always dealt with it in the moment and in a pretty uninformed way - the school refusal, developing into pretty difficult behavioural episodes, the insomnia, the violent mood swings etc. During the pandemic, his OCD symptoms became almost total - to the point where he was nearly all ritual, with barely any self remaining. We'd sometimes find him 'stuck' in the lounge at 5am, unable to get upstairs and often full days would pass with him unable to get out of his room. After lots of pressure and frantic emails, we managed to get him some help and eventually a diagnosis via Camhs. He was medicated (now on 200mg of Sertraline) and, miraculously, although his OCD is still pretty all-consuming, he got back into school (he's in Y10). Given where he was, this year has actually been OK, but there have been severe incidents at school with him unable to manage his impulse control and he's been threatened with expulsion. He is really vulnerable but, when he's struggling, can present as obnoxious and bolshy and will frequently say the unsayable and, well, there isn't much room for manoeuvre with a couple of things he's blurted out. After these incidents, and another barrage of tests and forms, he has been diagnosed with ADHD; we're currently waiting for a consultation for ADHD medication. The dude now has more letters after his name than me, which is frankly unacceptable.

His aunt, who he was incredibly close to, has recently died and he's finding it really hard to process and his OCD is currently pretty epic. His younger sister is incredible with him and he has lots of love and support but it's so hard to watch him - sometimes, he seems so bewildered and frantic. I'd never seen this thread before; as usual, ILX provides so much comfort and wisdom. I'm worried about more medication but the accounts I've read here are encouraging and I hope it provides him with some relief.

however, despite dabbling a handful of times in adderall and vyvanse which absolutely work for me, doc prescribed wellbutrin instead

Just about convinced that there's a flow chart somewhere that begins with "PRESCRIBE WELLBUTRIN", from which you can follow the "DID THIS WORK? NO." arrow to "PRESCRIBE VYVANSE OR ADDERALL".

Call your doctor next month and say it ain't working. Especially if it's not!

i also have a history of alcoholism which probably makes her more hesitant. uppers aren't my bag though, and in fact i wager a lot of my problems w/ addiction came from having adhd

I feel like I rather blundered in and left that long post without any preamble!

I've been wondering if anyone has any useful books or articles that have helped get a handle on ADHD?

That sounds really tough, but it also sounds like you’re doing a incredibly caring job of looking after him!

If you’re looking for books, I would really recommend the bootleg site B-OK, which has a ton of PDFs of books about OCD & ADHD, some of which are quite new (I’m a trainee counsellor and use it for most of my school reading!). if you can’t find the URL from googling, I can message it to you.

There have also been a few very good first person articles about ADHD in the (London) times recently – you’d have to get a free paywall trial, though, and they are a right pain to cancel

Thanks Chuck_Tatum, that site looks really useful. Would you be able to recommend any books specifically about ADHD?

There’s a lot to choose from - I’ve skimmed rather than read. This seemed like a good one. There’s a good chapter on the science in a book called Developmental Psychology (Gillibrand, Lam, O’Donnell). I haven’t read it but I imagine the Gabor Mate book Scattered Minds is good, based on what else I’ve read by him. He also has lots of talks on YouTube.

Got myself evaluated today and she told me I probably don't have it and gave me a list of tips for time management. I find myself really sad and disappointed about this. I'm not sure she's right. I feel like the fact that I can more or less hold down a job and make it to meetings and haven't gotten in any car accidents makes it seem like I don't have a disorder, and what I didn't manage to convey is the extent to which I've achieved that only by simplifying my life down to a handful of things I can keep track of.

All that shit is such a massive effort and I only manage any of it through brute force, and still I made a mistake this month which could have cost me my job, seems like an old story that "if you can manage it, then you don't have a problem" ignoring the immense strain managing it takes.

I was in the people didn’t believe I had it category until I was able to quantify how much time I lost every day at work, and sure enough it did eventually hurt me at work. I’m now still on Wellbutrin and my career pretty much took off after I got on it and also took some other measures like regular intense workouts, but I still had a really close call recently where I made a serious mistake but things worked out fine.

Thank you, this is helpful. I've been wondering whether I should just accept that the professional is right and I was wrong. But now I'm thinking I should try again, maybe in writing, to convey how much this feels like it's affecting my life.

The list of tips they sent is pretty much useless: keep a planner? yeah, if I could do that I would not have this shelf full of day planners with the first two pages filled out and the rest empty. Do one thing at a time? Great advice. How do I stop my brain from thinking, "ok, I have five things to do today, all of them complex, no idea which one I should start on first, so let's just read ilx all day instead"? How will scheduling little breaks and rewards into the workday (which I already do, of course) make me someone who can be like, "Hey, this job I have is a perfectly normal responsibility that requires a manageable level of attention and focus from me, so now I can take on an additional time-commitment, like a pet, or dating!"?

i feel like i posted that post. i would be so mad to be given that advice. like, i literally can't. or i can do one of those things for half a day before becoming too fatigued and slipping back into my normal pattern. i don't think you should accept a professional opinion just because they are a professional, it's still an opinion and they are wrong all the time. but do something before the inertia sets in, you know.

add me to the list of ilxors who didn’t realise this thread existed. i’m going to take a little time to read it now.

my 12-y-o was diagnosed with it last year, as well as oppositional defiant disorder, but it’s a spectrum obviously and chinaski your son’s symptoms sound much more severe than mine are.

that said i’ve been reading up about it and found a couple of good books. one in particular you might like lily (the only one that doesn’t focus on kids!) it’s called “delivered from distraction” and it’s by edward m hallowell and john j ratey.

I have had this over and over again with my older son, doctors teachers and school councillors - "he's fine, he doesn't make any trouble, nothing to worry about" - all infuriating, I just want some support but they cannot understand that I am not asking for drugs.

yes we have had drugs “suggested” a few times by the school’s special educational needs teacher which is like.. i feel like that’s not her call. to my mind my son is pretty far away from needing that level of chemical regulation. i don’t want to be defensive, and school staff can see things others can’t, but she doesn’t teach him. what we would like is a few adjustments for him if it’s possible. letting him have short breaks, letting him stand, etc

Thank you, this is helpful. I've been wondering whether I should just accept that the professional is right and I was wrong. But now I'm thinking I should try again, maybe in writing, to convey how much this feels like it's affecting my life.

The list of tips they sent is pretty much useless: keep a planner? yeah, if I could do that I would not have this shelf full of day planners with the first two pages filled out and the rest empty. Do one thing at a time? Great advice. How do I stop my brain from thinking, "ok, I have five things to do today, all of them complex, no idea which one I should start on first, so let's just read ilx all day instead"? How will scheduling little breaks and rewards into the workday (which I already do, of course) make me someone who can be like, "Hey, this job I have is a perfectly normal responsibility that requires a manageable level of attention and focus from me, so now I can take on an additional time-commitment, like a pet, or dating!"?

― Lily Dale, Monday, August 16, 2021 4:12 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

That reminds me of a standup comic joke I liked (forget the comic): the gist is "I'm pretty disorganized, so I hired a personal organizer, and one of the tips she gave me was to turn all the hangers in my closet the same way, and then every time I wear an outfit and hang it up again after washing turn the hanger the other way. At the end of the year, I should look at what clothing items had their hangers still turned the original way, and throw those out. And I thought 'if I could manage to do that, I wouldn't need a personal organizer in the first place.'" I'm sure it was better told, but you get the idea.

And yeah, I always found stuff like that useless. "Just keep a planner."

If I may recommend a book: The Power of Habit. You really don't need to read the whole book because the later parts are about "organizational habits" and I think they kind of stretch the concept too far, but the early chapters have some really helpful explanations of how to build habits, something that I find really helpful with ADHD. Basically anything you can "automate" in your life through habit will become that much easier to manage and take that much more of the mental load off. And you kind of do it by starting with one thing - he calls this a "keystone habit." It can be making the bed every morning or a brisk walk at lunch or whatever. Anyway read the book, it helped me.

This lecture (annoyingly broken up into a million tiny pieces but helpfully recompiled into a YouTube playlist) was helpful for me in recognizing some of the characteristics of ADHD & understanding why, for example, I have so much trouble with time management.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY

And the podcast ADHD Re-Wired has been helpful with actual like tips & tricks type stuff to inspire me to do things like activating Siri on my phone so I can get her to set reminders, create notes and lists etc while I’m driving (which is when I always seem to think of things that I need to remember, and can never remember what they were once I arrive at my destination). It’s kind of annoying so I take it in small chunks but it’s been genuinely helpful.

Sometimes when I forget/doubt I really have a disorder I think about certain types of things I will regularly do. For example, I run two dehumidifiers in my basement. The other day, I emptied both, but then got distracted by some other thing I needed to do and went upstairs. When I came back down I realized that I had left one of the dehumidifier bins (emptied) on the sink. I find this helpful to think about because obviously I was not being "lazy" -- I did the hard part of emptying the dehumidifier by carrying the bin to the sink and emptying it! Yet my mind pulled me away from the much easier part of the task, simply putting the bin back in the dehumidifier on the way back up. Similarly I'll often empty the kitchen recycling bin in the garage but then just leave it there. Occasionally I'll load the entire dishwasher, put in a pellet, and close it, but then just not make sure it turns on -- again, I did all the hard work, it's not laziness. There's no explanation for these behaviors other than either a disorder or I have some kind of weird perverse passive aggression on an unconscious level, and the latter doesn't really make sense since I do stuff like this when I'm alone.