HEALTHCARE THREAD

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i agree that big pharma needs to be dealt with, i'm just not sure how

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:54 (sixteen years ago) link

xp - Malpractice insurance is only 2-3% of our total healthcare cost and more a function of insurance co. profitability than anything else.

milo z, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:55 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah shit like that happens aaaaaalll the time here too

xxp

jhøshea, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:55 (sixteen years ago) link

In many cases, doctors really are paying upwards of 100k/year. moreover, the ones carrying the most are the kind we're running out of: OBs, in particular

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

my wife likes to yell at the TV when an ad comes on, and she claims that there is only one other country in the world that allows pharma ads. i wonder if that's true.

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

At least health care IT in the U.S. is improving and, I think, >>> other places :>

Jordan, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

And make sure you don't have any behavioral health problems while uninsured, you will be blacklisted for life by insurance companies. Even under a group healthcare plan, they will fuck you over and make it extremely difficult to get a claim filed. The insurance companies want you to give up.

Jeff, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

jhoshea: not really, dude. i mean, certainly not the morphine thing.

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

price caps for starters.
xpost to big pharma

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Direct-to-consumer_advertising

Direct-to-consumer advertising (DTCA) is the promotion of prescription drugs through newspaper, magazine, television and internet marketing. Drug companies also produce a range of other materials, including brochures and videos, that are available in doctors offices or designed to be given to patients by medical professionals or via patient groups.

The only two developed countries where DTCA is currently legal are the U.S. and New Zealand. (See Direct-to-consumer advertising in the United States and Direct-to-consumer advertising in New Zealand for more country-specific details). While banned elsewhere, the drug industry is mounting major lobbying campaigns to have DTCA allowed in Europe and Canada. (See Direct-to-consumer advertising: The Campaign To Overturn Europe's Ban and Direct-to-consumer advertising: CanWest's Bid to Overturn Canada's Ban for further details).

Fucked up.

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

bell labs: what are the so many things, though??? like, i don't find the fact that you have to PAY for healthcare to be appalling in any way whatsoever. you have to pay for everything else in the world, why not healthcare? why should it have to be free?

i have no problem having to pay for it, but individual health policies are NOT affordable b/c of the way that insurance works. group policies are not available to everyone, and to those who don't have access to group policies paying for procedures and hospital visits are unfairly inflated.

bell_labs, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

maybe were generous w/the morphine - but sloppy misdiagnoses, yes

xp

jhøshea, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:58 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah, most of the cost of an ICU stay is the fact that you're paying for facilities as much as care. i'll see if i can find a breakdown (which may prove difficult? i had to yell at peeps to get one for my ER visit)

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:58 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm not too crazy familiar with the way it works stateside but don't hmo's basically add another level of cost to the overall heath care equation there?

more xposts

-- The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Monday, June 18, 2007 4:52 PM (Monday, June 18, 2007 4:52 PM) Bookmark Link

I think the argument wrt that is that HMO's add an extra level of administrative costs/waste?

More than anything I'd like to see pharma companies BANNED from advertising to the general public. These commercials that don't even really tell you what the drug is for/talk about it in a way that makes it sound like YOU MUST HAVE IT need to stop. Bad for doctors, bad for patients. :(

jessie monster, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

CON: GB healthcare misdiagnosed my grumbling appendix for 8 months
PRO: When they finally got around to extracting my burst appendix, they did not kill me
DECISIVE PRO: They also gave me the morphine button

Just got offed, Monday, 18 June 2007 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

I think the argument wrt that is that HMO's add an extra level of administrative costs/waste?

and profitability

milo z, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:00 (sixteen years ago) link

also, plz note guys that i'm totally open on this issue at the moment. like, something's definitely wrong, but i'm not entirely sure what the solution is here in the US

xp totally, jessie: while patients should absolutely have a say in how they're cared for, they really shouldn't be telling docs they NEED to have $DRUGSEENONTV

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:00 (sixteen years ago) link

an argument I've heard for single-payer in the US is the drastic reduction in administrative bullshit. there'd simply be one bill that the patient would never see, and entire billing depts would no longer be necessary

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:01 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think I'd have the guts to ask a doctor for a specific drug (but maybe that's because the drugs I'd ask for fall into the possible-fun category).

milo z, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:02 (sixteen years ago) link

I have an aunt who always conveniently "has" whatever disease is currently being pushed by big pharma.

jessie monster, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:03 (sixteen years ago) link

the flipside is: you now have one entity that decides how much every checkup, procedure, and so on, is worth. if the gov't decides that a Whipple is now worth $200, then that's how much it'll cost, period.

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:03 (sixteen years ago) link

gr8080: exactly. ppl in America have come to expect the very best healthcare in the world (in the cutting-edge, pulling-out-all-the-stops sense), and suddenly making that free to everyone would cost serious $$$$

yeah but even if the system stays where it is it could still destroy the economy.

meaning: we as a society will need to make some hard decisions in the next decade or two as to how long we choose to keep people alive.

but then its only another generation or two before the results of the human genome project wipe the slate clean and we all look like uma thurman and ethan hawke in gattica, right?

gr8080, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:03 (sixteen years ago) link

pharma and insurance lobbies are honestly too big to expect much of anything to change w/r/t those things in particular. any universal healthcare is going to involve a low-cost basic coverage through a private insurer.

bell_labs, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (sixteen years ago) link

like Julianne Moore and Clive Owen in Children of Men, more like

milo z, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:04 (sixteen years ago) link

pharma R+D should be separated from the manufacturing and marketing side. license formulas out to various companies and make guaranteed money while they compete to push their brand at the lowest cost. the end.

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:05 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm baffled that there hasn't been a huge geeky push for open-source EMRs yet (that i know of). if EMRs get locked into proprietary software, then we're really fucked, esp if different groups/hospitals use different systems. like, what'd be the fucking point

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:06 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't know what you Americans are getting so worked up over:

Some U.S. hospitals offer gifts for long emergency-room waits

I mean, check it. You might have an aneurysm in your artery, but dude, FREE TIGERS TICKETS.

Pleasant Plains, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:06 (sixteen years ago) link

isn't that what the generic system is for? and wouldn't it require an overhaul of patenting? xxpost to tombot

jessie monster, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:07 (sixteen years ago) link

and BTW we could chuck all the life-support systems in the ocean and let boomers all just get old and die but the economy's going to be destroyed anyway by a little thing called the dependency ratio (ESPECIALLY if we implement tax-supported single payer)

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:07 (sixteen years ago) link

isn't that what the generic system is for?

Doesn't it take like 6-7 years for a drug to become generic?

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:08 (sixteen years ago) link

yes, due to patent laws.

jessie monster, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:08 (sixteen years ago) link

I think. Some kind of fancy law.

jessie monster, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:09 (sixteen years ago) link

and they're working on overhauling the patent system as we speak, but for techno stuff, i think it passed the house?

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:09 (sixteen years ago) link

from what i understand, the wait is 7 years for generics. however, SNEAKY DRUG COMPANIES have figured out that if they REPURPOSE a drug for a different, possibly made-up disorder, then they get another 7 years

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

jessie: no. patents are patents. the R+D labs would make money up front for licensing implementations to big manufacturing contractors. probably another company would pay the contractor and label/market the pills as they come off the line. it's just like 21st century modern business, instead of 19th century business.

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

that is, if you figure out that ritalin is not only good for adhd but also wandering gaze syndrome, then you can hold onto that ritalin patent

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

On my current plan I've had several occasions I've waited over an hour for the most cursory of 5-minute appointments. I never had anything like this with my NHS doctor.

Only two days after coming back from a joint replacement surgery I had my insurance company calling me to question whether the last day I spent in hospital was really necessary. Just previous to this they had confirmed that the hospital and the surgeon were covered by my plan, but that they could not guarantee that the anesthesiologist or anyone else who took care of me during my hospital stay would be covered as they didn't know who they would be. To quote Wendell Pierce in When The Levees Broke, there is a special circle of hell reserved just for insurance companies.

admrl, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:11 (sixteen years ago) link

e.g. snorg pills

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:11 (sixteen years ago) link

however, SNEAKY DRUG COMPANIES have figured out that if they REPURPOSE a drug for a different, possibly made-up disorder, then they get another 7 years

Yep, they tweak one or two things and EUREKA

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:11 (sixteen years ago) link

Just previous to this they had confirmed that the hospital and the surgeon were covered by my plan, but that they could not guarantee that the anesthesiologist or anyone else who took care of me during my hospital stay would be covered as they didn't know who they would be.

this is the worst---I got nailed in a similar way when it turned out that the ER doc that treated me belonged to a private group that did not accept my insurance, so i paid 50% of his bill out of pocket, while my insurance covered 80% of everything else (after hueg deductible)

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:13 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm not even sure they have to tweak anything :-/

just need to show that it can be used for a different illness. good thing the treaty of versailles came along, or else we'd all still be paying out the nose for bayer

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:14 (sixteen years ago) link

wait snorg pills sound kind of good. do they help clear up allergy related sniffling?

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:15 (sixteen years ago) link

no they give you big boobies tho

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Btw, much of big pharma R&D piggybacks on publicly funded university research.

Martin Van Burne, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:16 (sixteen years ago) link

it's all stupid and based on business models that are centuries old! back when people died at 55, they couldn't bring you back, and every man got a stiffy in his trousers whenever he wanted! back when children were allowed to play outside because they ate eggs for breakfast every day and were essentially bulletproof! now we're all sick all the time and everyone has a soft pecker and a glass jaw and our water is so dangerous we have to bottle it up to keep it from getting on our hands!

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:17 (sixteen years ago) link

i could go for some scrambled eggs

Mr. Que, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:17 (sixteen years ago) link

we take too many antibiotics in this country

river wolf, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:18 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm sick of this thread because it's just reminding me that nobody's going to fix shit until it's time for the fucking BOOMERS to decide that WE have to eat shit and pay for their fucking drugs! fuck them! fuck'em fuck'em fuck!! fuck shit FUCK YOU OLD PEOPLE fuck fuck ass fuck shit!

TOMBOT, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:19 (sixteen years ago) link

i just ate 2 soft boiled eggs

jhøshea, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:19 (sixteen years ago) link

we take too many antibiotics in this country

-- river wolf, Monday, June 18, 2007 9:18 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

i've been on cipro like 3 times this year already

bell_labs, Monday, 18 June 2007 21:20 (sixteen years ago) link


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