People that you've never heard of, people that are in the dark shadows -- US Politics September 2020

inclusion in "america" is now judged by if you like donald trump, seems sustainable.

turns out Orange Shitpile aspires to be Ming the Merciless

Officers requested a "heat ray" weapon for possible use against protesters in a park next to the White House in June, a National Guard major has said.

Military police allegedly asked the National Guard for the Active Denial System (ADS), which makes targets feel their skin is on fire.

It happened before Lafayette Square was cleared of people protesting against the killing of black man George Floyd.

The National Guard did not possess the heat ray and it was not used.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54187961?

god i hate this smug dumb fuck Barr so much. he's right behind his boss right now in terms of who I most want to see beneath a guillotine.

I've got him first in line. He knows what he's doing.

Ditto--him and Pence.

Yeah Barr is slightly worse to my mind. Orangekins is actually running third behind Barr and Moscow Mitch.

im w/ jvc because of immediate efficacy and lasting power for the unbuilding america proj

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Barr is currently the most dangerous person in/to the US.

otm

sorry to post a trump tweet, but i feel like the actual thing is needed, here, to see what he's quoting, to see what he's saying, to see the weak-ass twitter info "correction" on it:

Because of the new and unprecedented massive amount of unsolicited ballots which will be sent to “voters”, or wherever, this year, the Nov 3rd Election result may NEVER BE ACCURATELY DETERMINED, which is what some want. Another election disaster yesterday. Stop Ballot Madness! https://t.co/3SMAk9TC1a

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 17, 2020

seriously, get this fucking guy out of office. he's not just nodding toward civil war 2 in the days after the election, he is openly promoting it and has been for months

i don't know what we're all supposed to do. but it's disturbing to me how collectively all we can seem to do is grunt in response

"we" = anyone who isn't a fascist

so many commentators seem embarrassed to bring up the idea that they think this is possible. the ever-equivocating josh marshall goes to long lengths to make it clear that "I am not predicting this and I do not think this is likely." no one wants to talk about it, because you look like a crazy person if you point out that the president, the attorney general, dozens of politically appointed stooges, and millions of fucking idiots who believe in qanon (and think trump does too, and/or is god or divinely inspired or a conspiracy that they're in on and will gain from) are definitely ready for it and want it to happen, and have been laying down the groundwork for it for YEARS now

sorry, i quoted the doubtful part of the ever-equivicating josh marshall, without quoting the substance of it:

Before more time goes by a brief follow up on yesterday’s post about the Trumpian build up for a violent showdown after the election. In his late afternoon press conference yesterday President Trump again found an opportunity to declare his readiness to put down election night “riots” or “protests” by force using the US military. He quickly joined this to a conversation about purported voter fraud and election rigging using mail in ballots.

If you put together the scenario he keeps predicting it’s one in which he loses and loses on election night – or rather, in his telling, he suffers an apparent loss because of rampant fraud. Because of this purported fraud he refuses to accept the result and this leads to a violent confrontation on the streets – between civilian protestors and some mix of federal law enforcement and the US military. (Not good!)

As I said yesterday, I am not predicting this and I do not think this is likely. But I do think we should pay very close attention and continue to focus attention on the fact that President Trump keeps pushing this idea and predicting it as an outcome.

xxp including months of ppl itt

Indeed, i think it’s the very salient sensation of being the frog in the boiling water that’s getting me riled up. We see this coming, we know this is coming, it goes from nods to dog whistling to vocal advocation, not just once but repeatedly. A significant part of the population wants this to happen - I do count white evangelicals among them, with the conspiracy nuts, white supremacist groups, “patriots”, gun people - they all share common ground in seeking a violent, chaotic outcome (some say they seek “freedom”, others call it the rapture)

gosh guys, don't you know that kinda talk can only go in the Trump winning containment thread?

The most surreal part of living through a fascist coup is that we're not even talking about it as such.

— Max Berger (@maxberger) September 17, 2020

^which also seems very frog in the kettle to me^

not being able to see the forest for the trees is part of the fascist takeover playbook, from what i understand.

and looking back in ilx history, in a couple years, how disturbing it might be to find all the talk about the whole "fascism" thing confined to a "containment" thread. i mean, i totally get it, but holy shit you all, look at this

trigger warning: moaning apocalypse thoughts

i know you all think i'm a fucking idiot with this stuff, i'm sure, but it relates to the things i've been trying to say about how it seems like more and more, human actions are the end result of a longer, planned process:

it starts with desired outcome or idea, and then a simulation of something and then socializing of an idea or prediction to such a degree that it gradually becomes "common wisdom". example: the impeachment of trump. we all knew the shape of it, we just didn't know the particulars. but months before the trial started, we knew there was going to be a trial and there was going to be a bad outcome (for non-fascists). the only thing left to argue over was whether it would be a good political move. but lost in all that is the most important thing, the collective "ah ha!" moment that feels like it once existed, the "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" or the massive shift in public opinion on Nixon once they could hear his voice saying the awful things aloud. that moment, which is SO IMPORTANT, is now gone. we don't collectively hear all of the trump/ukraine stuff at once, at the same time, in a very intense collective-learning session as impeachment trial. we don't get shocked. instead, watching the impeachment was like seeing a re-run for the 5th or 6th time. everyone knew that almost all the republicans would vote to acquit trump, no matter what the evidence was. the excitement was seeing whether susan collins would show some spine, or would mitt romney be so brave to support both impeachment counts. political commentary and op-eds became the results. lost was the outrage of seeing 50+ republicans all vote in solidarity for the worst fucking person in the universe. the collective outrage, instead of becoming a spike and causing some sort of response, becomes a long low-level dull anger (at the president and his supporters) and blaming and infighting among those who still care about it - flattening the curve, basically, keeping the outrage below threshold levels for catalyzing change.

and now it's happening again (in fact is always happening) with post-election violence. now it's becoming common wisdom that yes, election night is going to be a disaster. i, in fact, believe this, but for very different reasons than my parents believe it. "flood the zone with shit" leads to mark levin telling millions of people how this is going to work, and them believing it. the mark levin version is basically civil war 2 with conservatives "fighting back" against the left, the "rigged elections", "mail ballot fraud", protesters, looters, riots, etc. that is dumb as hell, but it is a version of the future. conveniently, under this lunatic vision, conservatives and fascists get to not only go to war with the left and throw a bunch of people in prison (or worse), but they get an excuse for it, one that many would go to their graves believing in. because it was real to them. that's the benefit of living in a different information universe. we're all so tired of hearing it, i know, but that's the reality of making up your own "news" and then delegitimatizing everything else. that's the 1984 shit, right there, happening.

PHEW. just had to get that out there. i don't mean to say any of you are the problem - none of the above is addressed to anyone specifically, it's more my exhaustion with being unable to do anything about it, seemingly. all of the preparation, the learning, thinking about fascism and all the fucking wikipedia articles and warnings - it will be such a WASTE if we can't actually use all of those things to fight back against this now. that's really how i feel. i feel the marshall-esque need to balance that with a "of course we all have our bad days and i don't think it will actually be like this", but sometimes i do feel "alarmed"

Damn, Karl.

in other words, will someone else share my tinfoil hat, i am lonely

lol i should probably go back to work, but to anyone who made it through all of that, first of all i'm sorry, but also scroll back up to that trump tweet that sent me off the rails. i mean jfc

Karl, I get it. I know I've been in that state of absolute despair and hopelessness about the state of things. I'm not sure I'm onboard with all of your points there, but I deeply understand the feelings driving it for sure. I'm more concerned about the smaller pockets of violence that are going to break out because of a handful of numbskulls than I am about widespread violence, but that said - those smaller pockets are going to feel really fucking real to the people in the middle of them.

that was good, Karl

instead, watching the impeachment was like seeing a re-run for the 5th or 6th time

it was like seeing 5th and 6th grade all over again. what the power/popular kids say is real is real, and almost everyone else just kind of goes along with it, or openly roots for the bully. people who are pissed about it tend to punch down or at each other to vent

I had something typed up about how conservatives were cowards and will yap all day about taking to the streets and then not do shit but then I remembered how they stormed the governors house with rifles in Michigan so yeah, I don't know. I think Biden is going to win the election, but it's gonna be ugly and drawn out, and I do believe Trump is going to directly incite violence in the process. But I feel like it's not gonna be more than a few dozen "isolated incidents"

The refusal in the face of Covid by a not-insignificant portion of the population to comply with even the most basic lifesaving measures—their own lives included-has me feeling much, much more pessimistic about the peaceful transition of power.

It's one thing to demonstrate that you don't care about the welfare of others by how you vote. It's another altogether to know you may already be killing your next door neighbor all by yourself. I do fear that violence after election day would merely be an outgrowth of what's happening right now.

will someone else share my tinfoil hat, i am lonely

I think you are right, KM. this is ultimately driven by people who will stop at nothing to gain the maximum amount of power and for whom the institutions of this nation (USA) mean nothing other than a means to exercise maximum power. iow, these are people who are as amoral, ruthless and authoritarian as the Nazis were, even if the superficial details look different.

They've already weakened the rule of law shockingly, and are now deep into the process of trying to destroy the most important edifice of our rights, elections. There is a chance they will succeed, if not this year and entirely, but in laying a groundwork for the final toppling in another cycle or two.

Their their leader sreaight-up told them yesterday that deaths in blue states don't count

I think things are so broken in this country that most people can't even recognize when or how the government is hurting them, let alone helping them. At the same time, as inexcusably bad as things seem, we have a long way to go to even match this country's low points, let alone exceed them. Now, how long it could take for us to get down there is another matter.

I had something typed up about how conservatives were cowards and will yap all day about taking to the streets and then not do shit but then I remembered how they stormed the governors house with rifles in Michigan so yeah, I don't know. I think Biden is going to win the election, but it's gonna be ugly and drawn out, and I do believe Trump is going to directly incite violence in the process. But I feel like it's not gonna be more than a few dozen "isolated incidents"

― frogbs, Thursday, September 17, 2020 2:07 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think this is otm, but if it's not, then we at least will all know the correct answer to the Are You Thinking of Buying a Gun thread.

on a completely unrelated note,

Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan (D) accused President Donald Trump and Attorney General Bill Barr of “tyranny” late Wednesday suggesting the pair had warped the Justice Department into a “political weapon” used on those who speak out against the Trump administration.

The comments follow a New York Times report on Wednesday that revealed Attorney General Bill Barr asked the Justice Department’s civil rights division to explore bringing criminal charges against Durkan for allowing residents to establish a police-free protest zone earlier this summer.

According to the report, Barr also told federal prosecutors to consider sedition charges for rioters and those committing violent crimes at protests in recent months.

“Today’s report is chilling and the latest abuse of power from the Trump administration,” Durkan said in a statement issued late Wednesday, adding: “the Department of Justice cannot become a political weapon operated at the behest of the President to target those who have spoken out against this administration’s actions.”

The refusal in the face of Covid by a not-insignificant portion of the population to comply with even the most basic lifesaving measures—their own lives included-has me feeling much, much more pessimistic about the peaceful transition of power.

Another way to look at this is: these people are so fucking lazy that they've opted to grouse endlessly on Facebook rather than take very basic measures to safeguard their own health and well-being. If they can't be bothered protect the families they care for so very much by wearing a goddamn mask, they aren't going to protect them from the godless libruls by peeling themselves off the couch to participate in an interminable organized offensive.

I think Biden is going to win the election, but it's gonna be ugly and drawn out, and I do believe Trump is going to directly incite violence in the process. But I feel like it's not gonna be more than a few dozen "isolated incidents"

― frogbs, Thursday, September 17, 2020 2:07 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is where I tend to come down on the matter. the real downside though is that if Trumps "wins" in an exceedingly shady way, I don't think there's going to be some massive popular uprising either. there will probably be more violence in that scenario though because even if we get something on the level of the women's march from 2017 I think you'll see a lot of vigilantism and state power directed at putting those protests down in a very violent way because people are going to be convinced it's the early stirrings of a coup.

At the same time, as inexcusably bad as things seem, we have a long way to go to even match this country's low points, let alone exceed them. Now, how long it could take for us to get down there is another matter.

i do recognize the low points, and i recognize that as i sit here comfortably in a chair listening to any song, ever, because it's all on the internet, in air conditioning, that it could be worse. but still, this feels like the frog boiling in water thing, right now. barr is doing stuff on a weekly basis that would have been an enormous instantaneous career-ending scandal like...4 years ago. and nothing is happening. the accountability is gone, they took over DOJ and no one has been able to do anything to suppress barr, as far as i can tell? maybe there's some even worse things that could have happened but didn't, that we wouldn't know about? but the seattle mayor's statement "the Department of Justice cannot become a political weapon operated at the behest of the President to target those who have spoken out against this administration’s actions" isn't strong enough - it HAS become a political weapon! it may not have HIT her directly yet, but they've loaded it up and are aiming at her?

Also, if Biden wins, at least some of these sacks of dogshit will recognize that they might actually be held accountable for behaving like belligerent assholes without Papa Don at their back.

The refusal in the face of Covid by a not-insignificant portion of the population to comply with even the most basic lifesaving measures—their own lives included-has me feeling much, much more pessimistic about the peaceful transition of power.

Another way to look at this is: fashion > health

I do believe Trump is going to directly incite violence in the process. But I feel like it's not gonna be more than a few dozen "isolated incidents"

In a way it is a blessing that there are 50 state governments and state governors, because this attenuates the police powers of Trump. His force of LEOs he sent to Portland had to be scraped up from among ICE, Border Patrol, US Marshals, ATF and several other agencies. The US military is not about to get involved in street fighting for him and the National Guard is distributed among all those 50 governors.

This election is going to test the system very hard, but it would take more than some civilian militias and boogaloo boys to start a civil war this time around. There still needs to be more hollowing out before the system collapses.

I am trying to avoid talking about what-ifs because acknowledging the capacity for violence around the election or 45 digging his Cuban heels in manufactures consent for both of those things.

In other happier news I met a fellow American with parents in Florida who remotely child-locked Fox off their cable package because he had access to their Comcast account. The parents are not computer people and just think it’s broken :)))

Another way to look at this is: fashion > health

Yes, because these Wal-Mart shoppers are soooo fashionable.

To be clear, I'm not predicting a complete lack of violent response if Biden wins. This is still the USA in 2020, after all. I just don't see widespread armed insurrection happening. Trumpists have had four years of pretty much unfettered freedom to show their asses and, aside from just making the country worse in a very broad sense, they haven't undertaken any substantive acts of solidarity. I don't see them suddenly getting their shit together on election night.

I know I brought it up on one of these threads, but the fact that these people with guns, with ill-intent, with endless gripes against the forces of liberalism (which is to say, progress) exist and are not going away, whether or not they have always been here, is a huge, huge problem. The question remains how far they are willing to go, and how much others will accept. We have seen in the past what people are *not* willing to accept. The draft, for example, though that fight took years. Or (legal) segregation. But right now I think the biggest, cruelest crux is that those who are hurting or being hurt the most are the ones who were hurting already. The working poor, immigrants, people struggling in the best of times who are being made to struggle even more. These people need help, and they're not getting it, but that is a larger societal problem. So I do wonder what the "... and then they came for me" moment would be for the relative secure, those who are *not* hurting or not hurting nearly as much. Put another way, what right do we have now whose reversal would cause the dam to break? Abortion? Even that I'm not sure would do it. Guns? Possibly on the other side. Other than that, I'm not sure what would do it.

I am trying to avoid talking about what-ifs because acknowledging the capacity for violence around the election or 45 digging his Cuban heels in manufactures consent for both of those things.

if i understand you correctly, that's exactly what i can't come to grips with. by talking about it, we unintentionally normalize it as a possible outcome, just by discussing it to death. by the time it happens, we know a version of the story already and it's no longer shocking in the same way as it would be if it came out of nowhere.

but the part i can't figure out is whether not talking about it is an acceptable response. i don't have a better idea! and maybe it's the early 21st century internal bias of always being told that having more data is better, information is power, etc. maybe sometimes, it's actually not? but even then, where does that get anyone?

Wal-Mart shoppers are soooo fashionable.

"You don't need wealth to be a gourmand. There are thousands of gourmands of potatoes."

-- Albert E. Marley --

The racks upon racks of t-shirts printed with cute slogans and screen printed images at Wal-Mart are fashions, too.

This is quite sickening. (Sorry if already posted.)

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/north-carolina-is-already-rejecting-black-voters-mail-in-ballots-more-often-than-white-voters/

I’ve been going with ‘weird gun nuts are trying to manufacture consent for some epic bullshit’ because basic-bitch Midwesterners can be put off things if enough pepole call those things ‘weird’. Also none of my affected family members who vote GOP have any time for guns.

the part i can't figure out is whether not talking about it is an acceptable response.

the talking part is a distant second place in importance to organizing resistance now, ahead of the election. that is the best response possible.

if it makes you guys feel any better, if a civil war happens they're going to try to kill me first so you'll at least have some time to find a good bolthole

bringing criminal charges against Durkan for allowing residents to establish a police-free protest zone earlier this summer.

btw we still have no idea who told the police and national guard to abandon the precinct, except that the now-resigned police chief has declined to acknowledge that it was her