Pit Bulls: What's the appeal?

That said I'm pretty sure whatever the time, the rate of reported pit attacks has been well higher than any sort of breed average. A large part of that comes from being a powerful dog which has an unfortunate tendency to be owned by assholes, but I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the viewpoint that powerful dogs are powerful dogs and that this isn't the kind of problem that you are going to have with a french bulldog, a cat or a goldfish.

sure, but by the same token you could say that black people are most likely to murder you.
it's inflammatory rhetoric and I get weary of people treating my beloved pet like every lunge she makes or barking fit she engages in somehow makes her a DANGEROUS ANIMAL but when the poodle on the other side of the street does it, he's just being a dog.
any large non-human animal is potentially dangerous. it's incumbent on the owners to react properly. the fault lies, as it so often does with us, in the "parents" more so than the breed.

er, to clarify "black people are most likely to murder you" if you go solely by loaded statistics without any context.

"er, to clarify "black people are most likely to murder you" if you go solely by loaded statistics without any context."

Except that statement is actually statistically incorrect (if by you, you mean me that is) whereas the other other is actually correct (the highest % of reported bites by breed are by pits.)

I don't disagree that there is a double standard here, but it's not shocking or really even unfair that people are more uncomfortable around powerful dogs who are behaving aggressively than they are around little yipping ankle-biters.

I'm not gonna turn this into a race thread; my fault for leading the discussion that way.
"Highest % of reported bites" ignores a ridiculous amount of context: pits are also drastically misrepresented as overly-abused animals and they're abandoned with ridiculous frequency when dipshit owners discover that their four legged status symbol requires roughly the same amount of attention as a four year old. Again, this isn't the fault of the breed, it's an issue with the owners. The statistics are flatly dumb.

My issue is with people who have one or two bad experiences with a breed (or worse, just read SHOCKING NEWSPAPER STORIES) and paint hundreds of thousands of animals with one scary brush. I've been bit by an Akita once and it took me a while to get over my issue with the breed, but I've gotten there. I'm sympathetic to people's natural prejudices here; that's why I cross the street if I'm walking the girl and people recoil on the sidewalk in front of me. But it's a prejudice nonetheless and one basically born out of ignorance.

Again, to go with the thread beginning:
"ugly, ill-tempered, dangerous and, I imagine, probably smell quite bad"
^has to come from somebody who's either spent time around one or two badly abused pits or, more likely, none at all.

Alex in NYC is complete dipshit on this thread, no doubt about that.

That fact is thought that a % of all dog owners are basically inattentive/incompentent when it comes to training (or even just general attentiveness). It's very difficult for someone who has just been lunged at or barked at or whatever to be able to determine if the dog doing the lunging/barking/whatever is just being naturally exuberant or if it is owned by a complete dipshit. And in the cases of pits/dobermans/rottweillers/akita/ridgebacks or any case where the lunging dog is 1) likely as strong if not stronger than its owner and 2) able to deliver a powerful vicious bite well I don't blame anyone for getting a little agitated. It sucks when people look at your dog and see some vicious stereotype though, no doubt, esp. when the dog is doing nothing more than trotting along (well actually some times it's just funny--my dog is the most mild-mannered thing and occassionally for no visible reason passerbys just freak out and start walking like ninjas around her).

There's always going to be a dog 'most likely to bite people'.

lots of people are just scared of dogs. more are frightened of pits. in my neighborhood, they are animals that are associated with security so I get dumb kids trying to run and incite her out of stupid youth bravado, terrified women and older men who will freeze if we go by or men who coo over her as if she were a tricked out Chevy and want to know if she's breedable. All of the above is odd to me. I've been personally threatened by people when my dog barks or lunges at them and that's a little much.

it's been a learning curve to figure out how to properly sequester her from, oh, EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD when we go for walks so that no one feels threatened, she gets some freedom and she stays under control. It's always challenging. There are days i wish we'd opted for a dachshund. But I love her and she's a total sweetheart like 90% of the time.

not long ago, my roommate took up an offer on craigslist to care for a really insanely cute pitbull for a month...

http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=41854e72b9&view=att&th=1223c7d0546b42ce&attid=0.1&disp=inline&zw

we instantly grew so attached to her, and she was nothing but sweet toward every human who came her way. when it came to other dogs tho she was absolutely vicious, and i ended up loathing taking her on walks because other dog owners would give me such nasty looks.

men who coo over her as if she were a tricked out Chevy and want to know if she's breedable

oh hell yeah, that's all you'll get in this area

That fact is thought that a % of all dog owners are basically inattentive/incompentent when it comes to training (or even just general attentiveness).

Agreed on that point, not so much on me being a "complete dipshit," but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I did specify that it was "on this thread". I mean your first post isn't exactly a gem you should be proud of.

NY Alex, I need to introduce you to Banjo sometime. She smells great!
I don't see you round here much these days... are you only on ILM threads?

And incidentally, HAVE you spent much time around pit bulls?
I'm not slinging ad hominem here, but it really doesn't sound like you have.

HEe hee hee. Vid of a competition jumping pitty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lab6c_sKiBw

Set to, for some reason, Evanescence.

:O Her name is Banjo :D

Where are you seeing that Abbott?
A quick google search for "banjo pitbull" reveals some unpleasantness.
We named her that cuz you would wanna play her leg like a banjo. And we love the banjo.

forks is spitting complete truth here

uh pitbull appeal is here. Ten year old dog jumps like a pup and is perfect buddy for sleeping in, playing ball and esp. for dragging my ass out for frosty hikes at the moment. Rescued from shelter 7 years ago (they named him, I didn't).

Hi Henry Bernese Mountain dog, you are not a pit so I didn't feel entitled to post on your thread but thought I bear say hi to you, famous ILX dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzuqpOZeyu0

What an awesome dog!

is that a dangerous pit bull tactical jacket???

WKIW your pup.

Tactical jacket in the sense that my pit bull considers himself a delicate flower and doesn't like to go out without it, yes. He also wants to wear dog coats in the house and makes horrible faces at me when I remove them.

spiked collars are so passé

great dog
great great dog

do not like pit bulls one bit

http://usuarios.multimania.es/tmptmp/pit%20bull.gif

pit bulls can be the sweetest motherfuckers ever, btw, and yours is no exception. henry approves!

http://tofuhut.racknine.net/2007/Banjo/DSCN1269.JPG
truly dangerous animals

http://tofuhut.racknine.net/2007/Banjo/DSCN1257.JPG
vicious beasts

i mean i know that i bought a dog from the breed that tends to get the most uber cuddle buddy lovebug vibes in the large breeds (deserved btw), but i grew up w/ german shepherds and dobermans and i sincerely believe that there really arent any bad breeds (and i hang out on the regular w/a rhodesian ridgeback that frequents the neighborhood bar on the regular), just bad breeders and bad owners. pits can be really sweet, and it sucks that theyve gotten such a bad rap.

the thing peeps tend to forget is that dogs basically live to make their owner pleased, its one of the closest and weirdest human/animal bonds, so if some douche wants his dog to be a snapping froth mouthed dick, they will oblige, but all this dangerous breed bullshit is uh bullshit

not all are "vicious beasts," i grant you. is that one yours, forks? cute. and i'm sure totally tame. i know all dogs can be good with proper training and a loving home. but i cannot shake the feeling that pit bulls are an unstable -- and aggressive -- breed. had a near-bad experience with one once, and that was enough for me.

semi-related story: my wife found a male rotweiler a few years ago. i called some vets to see how those dogs did as pets. one told me he had a male and a female rot. he said the female was always kindly and even-tempered. and he said the male was also a good dog, too. but, he said, when he looked into the male rot's eyes, he always knew there could be a problem, and if there was, it would be serious. that stuck with me. we found a good home for "bubba" (my wife's name for the rot), but he didn't stay with us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBPEHKtOZMY
yeah that black one with the white stripe is mine. pibbles are naturally loving with people but they can be VERY protective of owners and territory. We're going through a rough patch with ours right now where she just wants to bark and lunge at everyone, but it's all fear and showing off; she's had multiple opportunities to do damage and always backs down. We're pretty sure she was abused when younger (scars on leg, came malnourished, runs anytime she sees us with a broom) and was a rescue so i gotta deal with adoption history. It's a constant struggle. but she's being awfully cuddly right now and i think i'm gonna go cuddle with a pit right now.

"smile dog" really wants water methinks

also re: the dangerous dogs argument genetically the closest living breed to the bernese is the rottweiler

ha xposts to the rotty mention a few posts ago! esp since bernese are typified by their "soft look"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27907798@N00/4239706258/sizes/m/

not all are "vicious beasts," i grant you. is that one yours, forks? cute. and i'm sure totally tame. i know all dogs can be good with proper training and a loving home. but i cannot shake the feeling that pit bulls are an unstable -- and aggressive -- breed. had a near-bad experience with one once, and that was enough for me.

― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:47 AM (6 minutes ago)

this kinda bothers me tbh and i'd refer you to jj's two posts above, which are beautiful & otm. tho you obviously know that your very limited experience can't be extended to the breed as a whole

i know that. and i'm sure they can be fine dogs. nevertheless, i would never let my daughter choose a pit bull as our family pet.

also i am a dude that carries a scar on my wrist from a doberman bite, and a scar on my eyebrow from a german shepherd, but both dogs were stuck in a sad fucked up situation (permanent outside kennel in mn combined with underfeeding for the doberman, far past viable existence for the shepherd because of total hip dysplasia and lick wounds) and honestly i could choose to think the breeds were the problem, but it seems obvious to me that i was a victim of bad dog care, not bad dogs.

:)

i am tempted to correct that statement to say not bad dog breeds, but (ok and maybe this is crazy dog loving dude talking) i dont think either of them were bad dogs, just really sad unfortunate outcomes of their situation. i mean tbf, i have been savaged and attacked by more cats than dogs for sure.

and, btw, my limited experience is by no means the only evidence:

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (2000)

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published in 2000 a study on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979-1998. The study found reports of 238 people killed by dogs over the 24-year period, of which "pit bull terrier" or mixes thereof were reportedly responsible for killing 76, or about 32 percent, of the people killed by dogs in the attacks identified in the study. The breed with the next-highest number of attributed fatalities was the Rottweiler and mixes thereof, with 44 fatalities or about 18 percent of the study-identified fatalities. In aggregate, pit bulls, Rottweilers, and mixes thereof were involved in about 50% of the fatalities identified over the 20-year period covered by the study, and for 67% of the DBRF reported in the final two years studied (1997-1998), concluding

"It is extremely unlikely that they (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers) accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."

The report's authors went on to say:

"Although the fatality data are concerning, one must broaden the context to consider both fatal and nonfatal bites when deciding on a course of action. ...(A) 36% increase in medically attended bites from 1986 to 1994 draws attention to the need for an effective response, including dog bite prevention programs. Because (1) fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% of all dog bites annually, (2) fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing, and (3) fatal bites are rare at the usual political level where bite regulations are promulgated and enforced, we believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention."

The report's authors suggested that "generic non–breed-specific, dangerous dog laws can be enacted that place primary responsibility for a dog’s behavior on the owner, regardless of the dog’s breed. In particular, targeting chronically irresponsible dog owners may be effective."

The latest CDC "Dog Bite: Fact Sheet" includes a disclaimer regarding this study, saying that

"it does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. Each year, 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities; about 0.0002 percent of the total number of people bitten. These relatively few fatalities offer the only available information about breeds involved in dog bites. There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill."

___________________________________________________

Clifton report (2009)

Mr. Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People News, has compiled from press reports a log of dog attack deaths and severe bites in the United States and Canada from September 1982 through December 22, 2009. The study methodology counted attacks "by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, (that) have been kept as pets." Mr. Clifton acknowledges that the log "is by no means a complete list of fatal or otherwise serious dog attacks" since it excludes "dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, ...attacks by police dogs, guard dogs, and dogs trained specifically to fight...."

The study found reports of 345 people killed by dogs over the 27-year period, of which "pit bull terrier" or mixes thereof were reportedly responsible for killing 159, or about 46 percent, of the people killed by dogs in the attacks identified in the study. The breed with the next-highest number of attributed fatalities was the Rottweiler and mixes thereof, with 70 fatalities or about 20 percent of the study-identified fatalities; in aggregate, pit bulls, rottweilers, and mixes thereof were involved in about 66% of the study-identified fatalities.

Mr. Clifton has concluded that

"Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant. What is relevant is actuarial risk. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier…has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price."

admittedly, some of what i omitted are other studies and reviews that have more equivocal results. but there is non-anecdotal evidence suggesting reasons to be very cautious about pit-bulls.

but i agree with jjjustin that a lot of this has to do with environmental conditions and giving them a loving home.

cats (and i have one) are mean assholes. the nastiest animal i have ever met that was a pet was a green parakeet that would go out of its way to injure any human in its path. mean little lizard brained son or a bitch.

xxpost: yeah but again the fact that jerk ass motherfuckers get pitbulls and train them to be aggressive is the issue there. 20 years ago dobermans and shepherds were the same fear status, and nobody knew what the hell pitbulls were

there are dangerous and cruel "dogfighting" groups in miami. they're underground, but they're here.

see, e.g., this October 2009 New Times article

wrt those numbers - i'd be curious to see what, for example, the avg household income is among the pit owners compared to other breeds, and if one breed is more prone to abuse or neglect by its owners or breeders