The question then becomes about how you effect any kind of substantive change in this ultra spun perma bad faith atmosphere and I don't have an answer to that.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:12 (three years ago) link
o freunde, nicht deez remoaners
― Boris the Spreader (NickB), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:12 (three years ago) link
xp the bad news for people who don't want to do is we need a whole new left infrastructure which is most likely well beyond the scope/reach/ethos of the Labour Party as the key stakeholder
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:18 (three years ago) link
"people who don't want to die" whoops
Isn't "many not the few" more like recycled occupy, we are the 99 or what have you?
It fell apart because you couldn't apply this to Brexit in 2019. The country was 1) divided down the middle but 2) it fucked Labour in the way it was distributed at constituency level.
So now we have Starmer liking the country. Can't wait to see how that goes.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:34 (three years ago) link
Also this is much bigger than the Labour Party, it's part of a sustained and a structured international anti-woke backlash and for now *they are winning*. Maybe new approaches are required or maybe time and events will change that idk.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:37 (three years ago) link
it's an actual class war, and middle class liberals are showing their true colours, and the Labour Party is on the wrong side as per
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:39 (three years ago) link
There's also a wider issue of downward social mobility over more than a decade now and how that's playing out wildly differently across different voter groups right now. There should be fertile ground for opposition parties especially given the pandemic, if they can find a way to create a narrative around it and more importantly make it stick.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:50 (three years ago) link
The poor must outflank the rich.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:51 (three years ago) link
the downward social mobility feels part of the global picture, a hyperwealthy elite manipulating national governments in their own favour to entrench and increase their wealth at the expense of people who would have had more life opportunities under more egalitarian post-WWII governance. almost as if the money is being stashed against the impending end of the world but sadly i don't have the imagination to believe they've got a secret spaceship project on the go
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 12:57 (three years ago) link
― scampos mentis (gyac), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:04 (three years ago) link
Corbyn was offering civic patriotism when seemingly most 45+ English voters wanted nationalist or ethnic patriotism. As long as that's what voters want Labour are never going to be be able to make fulfil that appeal. or should they try. The only hope is that upcoming voters possibly want the former.
Never forget the difference in 2017 was just half a million votes.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:13 (three years ago) link
Maybe the route is a simpler vote splitting one by the next election. Something like "they've had 15 years, no more excuses, you're still worse off under the Tories". It's very likely to be true and it would resonate. Focus on the thing that unites these groups, hammer it relentlessly, and worry about the rest later.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:22 (three years ago) link
That line is a must.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:26 (three years ago) link
that's a decent approach, a lot might depend on how 2025 looks compared to 2021 tho
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:28 (three years ago) link
hammer that line but worry about the rest now because the rest is why it hasn’t already worked
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link
still trying to wrap my head around this preposterous yet plausible idea that the Tories bagged around 2 million first-time voters at the last GE
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:31 (three years ago) link
But do you love your country?
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:34 (three years ago) link
our :)
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:41 (three years ago) link
i love Country will that do?
― À la recherche du scamps perdu (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:42 (three years ago) link
Sir QC loves it, no doubt.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:43 (three years ago) link
There are only two kinds of country.
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:44 (three years ago) link
My reading of 2017 and 2019 was that people got the message that they were less well off but that kicking migrants was the way forward to prosperity, hence the re-election of the party of Queen, country, austerity, Brexit and Windrush.
Obv Brexit will happen now so if people don't feel well off they could vote for even more hatred of people that aren't white, ofc. Whatever, just love this fucking country.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:51 (three years ago) link
this is britain. many brits literally desire repression by these people, in a semi-sexual way, over and above any class interests they should have from a leftist pov. no patriotism can fix this
Boris Johnson said he 'loved' fox hunting in a 'semi-sexual' way https://t.co/zlGJnwhzXZ— The Independent (@Independent) July 18, 2020
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Saturday, 18 July 2020 13:52 (three years ago) link
That's it, he's done for!
― nashwan, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:01 (three years ago) link
They thought they were worse off, some of them blamed migrants, some of them believed Brexit and Johnson would make them better off, and they had no faith in Labour to make them better off. We know all the reasons for that last part.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:09 (three years ago) link
Good points in here! Whats your reading for why the message was less succesful prior to 2017
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:12 (three years ago) link
BoJolyon.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:25 (three years ago) link
There was no offer of anything from Lab in the Ed M years.
Just the place we are going back to, funnily enough, but it may not matter as much, depends on the state of the country we all love so much in 2024.
Thinking also it will be 13 years since the last lab government so that might be long enough for a change of colour for a lot of people. And maybe the climate crisis will not have hit us by then in a significant way.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:33 (three years ago) link
Can agree with that for sure, what about June 2017 though
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:35 (three years ago) link
What about it?
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:38 (three years ago) link
I misread your post just realized, you were including the 2017 and 2019 voters together, for me there was more of a difference in the two groups
― anvil, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:42 (three years ago) link
The fact that Lab gained seats is good evidence that Lab had an offer, but it's all hard to disentangle from Brexit, whose result Labour were keen to honour.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:45 (three years ago) link
That's... quite the claim
― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:45 (three years ago) link
Hi Andrew
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:46 (three years ago) link
Anyway wtf
114 uk coronavirus deaths recorded yesterday. almost double the number of the previous day. today tories announce they are halting the publication of the daily death toll. i feel so awful for everyone mourning right now while the media and the government turn their backs.— Sita Balani (@sitainshort) July 18, 2020
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:47 (three years ago) link
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-53443724?
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link
So now we are just getting hospital death figures until the govt "investigation" into how the figures are counted, copping their moves from BOlsonaro
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link
Wait what the fuck? Are they going to hope that no one notices? Surely the NHS will keep publishing the hospital death toll or is that going to be suppressed as well?
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
Got to say lads I think this might backfire.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:10 (three years ago) link
No the hospital death toll continues, just heard it ont radio 29
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:10 (three years ago) link
I need to look into this again when I get home, it's pissing it down and my phone is saturated!
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:17 (three years ago) link
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:10 (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Have always regarded you as a purveyor of OTM-ness on these threads but lately you've been suggesting very logical 'the Tories won't get away with this' and then logic itself breaks and they get away with it. Not really an indictment on you tbf
― imago, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:33 (three years ago) link
However today is the first day the government will not be releasing an overall figure including deaths in all settings amid claims the data is "distorted".
there is some skulduggery going on here.
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 15:44 (three years ago) link
It doesn't have to be fatal to the government to backfire, it just has to provoke a big argument. Of course they're going to 'get away with it', they have an eighty seat majority, but they can't go on piling up these breaches of trust indefinitely.
Also if you stop publishing the data people will conclude you've got something to hide, that it's about to get worse, which isn't exactly going to get more people out there spending money.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 18 July 2020 16:12 (three years ago) link
This could get spicy.
Hey @spikedonline, can you please retract this falsehood? That’s not what I said.My comments were about the way in which the treatment of Shamima Begum opens the door to other children of migrants to be treated as unequal before the law on the basis of their parents’ heritage. pic.twitter.com/l9UOwZJqhv— Ash Sarkar (@AyoCaesar) July 18, 2020
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 18 July 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link
Those disapproval rates will stay low as long as he plays the narrow parliamentary game that bypasses most voters but for now keeps Tory press off his back, the operative words being for now as the billionaire proprietors know they can play a long game as they did with Miliband— Stephen Smith (@SteveNickSmith) July 18, 2020
Now Starmer's approval rating is dipping as the well as Labour being 8-10 points behind but at least he hasn't got Corbyn's disapproval rating ... yet!
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 20:03 (three years ago) link
hmm remember when Corbyn was anything from 3pts ahead to 5 points behind and people kept repeating this blatant falsehood he was 10 pts behind.
― calzino, Saturday, 18 July 2020 20:10 (three years ago) link
instead, Johnson’s government is handing out vouchers to encourage people back to restaurants in the middle of a pandemic and trying to cajole businesses to bring an end to home working in order to save Pret a Manger
Steven Bush in the Observer today. I can only conclude he's been reading this thread.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 19 July 2020 10:09 (three years ago) link
She’s so dire.
“If we knew those documents came from Russia of course we wouldn’t use them” in future, says @lisanandy about leaked docs during election. And more widely:“I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again, we got in wrong on Russia”, for example, over Salisbury poisonings. #Marr— Paul Brand (@PaulBrandITV) July 19, 2020
― scampos mentis (gyac), Sunday, 19 July 2020 10:44 (three years ago) link