love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics)

Going to bite on this one. Patriotism and flag-waving is silly and banal but why not just stick a flag on it and shut down that flank? It seems to matter to some people and not doing opens up space for accusations of they dont love our country innit they love the palestine more than they love their own mothers they dont care

I love britain, frack any of it get banged

britain is a racist endeavour, loving it is never ok

That's it, I love Britain.

bloody love a bit of Blighty me

I've got that Alan Vega track, "Viet Vet" going through my head now:

"He loves his country
It's the greatest, it's the greatest"

you don't have to be a bit mad tory to live here but it sure helps!

its UK garage not EU garage chat shit get banged

Don't really give a shit about strategy, fuck a patriot, open the borders

I mean I guess it's like religion, not my place to question other people's faith, but at least religion has some up sides.

I don't have any real interest in either patriotism or religion but I don't know that 'oh we don't have any space for either of those, you want to try those other cunts down the road" is all that good an idea, that explicity saying we disapprove of these things even in the abstract, I don't get what the point is in terms of building broad coalitions without having to compromise at all on substance

I know there'll be valid reasons other than "oo, icky tho" but I'm not super clear on what they are

any personal interest in either I should say, but I don't feel intrinsic opposition to them particularly either

I know all countries are made up but, the UK? WTF is it and what's it for?

xp the strategic error of taking this view is playing into the hands of the Tories, and anyone impressed by Tory flag waving and talk of “patriotism” is highly unlikely to be convinced by Labour doing it, nor are they likely to buy into a vision of patriotism that includes rather than excludes. It is also bound to turn off other parts of the voter coalition.

the shor kid mentioned on the US thread is right. the tories win on 'patriotism' all day long unless there's a specific circumstance that flips it (and no, russian interference doesn't count here). the more you talk about it, the more you're on their turf. just get off it and onto subjects people prefer you on. otherwise you're dukakis in the tank.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/2125/production/_102858480_mallett1.jpg

"progressive patriotism"

These are good answers, I definitely see what gyac says and yes if it's not convincing it becomes laughable. But that sorta then becomes the problem, if politicians wanting office within a country on some level don't actually seem to like that country...isn't that kind of weird to a lot of people?

Bernard Sanders seems to do ok at it? It's probably easier in US than UK. Is it that impossible? If you asked public if idk Gary Neville was 'patriotic' I think they'd say yes?

No need to mention you're patriotic out of the blue any more than that you're religious. If someone brings it up, a journalist say - simply reply "of course! who doubts this??" or "what a question mate! wouldn't be an MP if I weren't mate. Maaaaate."

I'm not sure how anyone can be patriotic about the UK tbh.

No need to mention you're patriotic out of the blue any more than that you're religious. If someone brings it up, a journalist say - simply reply "of course! who doubts this??

Thats more or less where I'm going, answering "Yes" as though the question is do you like the beers, and not "Well its a complex question and it really depends what you mean when you say...."

People who ask need a bit of a dressing down with it too though. I mean it's just fucking rude.

Slippery slope for Jess now. Which were the six bits of the ceremony that triggered the tears? The more patriotic bits? Or just that shit with Mr Bean? With or without the facts we will make up our own minds.

Jes(u)s weeped.

the strategic error of taking this view is playing into the hands of the Tories, and anyone impressed by Tory flag waving and talk of “patriotism” is highly unlikely to be convinced by Labour doing it, nor are they likely to buy into a vision of patriotism that includes rather than excludes. It is also bound to turn off other parts of the voter coalition.

Coming back to this, I'm not suggesting the left should turn into full kit wankers on this, or trying and compete with the Tories! But to have a baseline of "seems like they like their country and the people in it", which is a pretty low bar

If you're living next to someone that bench presses 200 pounds every day you're never going to compete with that and why would you, but going for a swim once a week is still a good idea.

It's really not much more than what nashwan posted ("of course! who doubts this??"). If I'm standing on helping the people of x, if it seems like I don't really like x how convincing am I in my message.

I don't think this needs to involve any triangulating, any compromising, any kowtowing. Seeming like you might actually like the voters and their dependants is surely a good thing unless you don't believe in electoral politics (tho electoral politics is admittedly a sham but given our general lack of mental fortitude and weaponry I'm not fancying out chances in the other side of the draw any better)

^yes. having a positive vision for britain is key. although corbyn kind of did have this! not enough people bought into it. fiendishly hard for Labour or any leftists with actual aspirations of power or influence to get 'patriotism' right tbf, as gyac says you have to kind of skirt around it and exude a vibe

Watching the making of the Olympic 2012 opening ceremony and I have weeped 6 times already. I love my country very much.

— Jess Phillips MP (@jessphillips) July 17, 2020

not that vibe

Crying at the fantastic 2012 Olympics ceremony re-reun: humour, history and a sense of our place in the world. All gone to crap in a few years. How? Why? To make a few people richer and to satisfy Putin? Thanks Johnson, Gove, Farage and Cummings... 😔 https://t.co/OiVksSXY6H

— Jon Turnbull (@jonwturnbull1) July 17, 2020

Watching the rerun of the magnificent 2012 Olympics opening ceremony on BBC1. What an inspirational portrayal of a proud country with our own queen, armed forces and flag. Then the #brexit referendum was called to regain the sovereignty we always had. We are now divided ☹️ pic.twitter.com/5HxQxWYgD2

— Nick Hopkinson #FBPE 🇬🇧🇪🇺 🔶 (@nickhopkinsonEU) July 17, 2020

TELEGRAPH FRONT PAGE: Begum ruling leads to judicial politics row #TomorrowsPapersToday pic.twitter.com/4lJ2tCXuEf

— Neil Henderson (@hendopolis) July 17, 2020

Excited to see the panel of ‘legal experts‘ they’ll put together to decide that the government is, after all, above the law.

https://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Mascot-11.jpg

I don’t really get your point anvil, because I v much take the Connolly view on this:

Ireland, as distinct from her people, is nothing to me; and the man who is bubbling over with love for “Ireland”, and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering wrought upon the people of Ireland is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar.

next GB olympics opening ceremony should just be the captain tom cake head with a spotlight on it for 2 hours
https://g9e6e8a4.stackpathcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Leanne-Harrys-finished-Captain-Tom-cake-1.jpg

why did she give the nose big r/popping energy

Like, how can you say you like the country and the people in it when children go hungry? How is pretending that waving a flag around means you love the country and its people more than anyone who wants its people to be fed, housed, and cared for?

I'm not saying this! I'm saying is there merit in saying "I like my country and the people who live in it, and thats why I want the children that live in it to have enough food, be housed and be cared for"? I don't think this needs 150 flags or to compete

A lot of the reasons Corbyn & Labour were considered “unpatriotic” were tied to blatant bigotry

100%. I'm in total agreement here, and the right wing media is going to hammer on this. I don't think this means need to overcompensate, but leaving the door wide open can be averted. I'm not suggesting going all in on 'patriotism' 100 (or even 10!), but enough to tick a low bar of "likes the country"

I want to be clear here I'm not talking about attempting to outdo the Tories. If this is something super high priority to a voter, fuck em, you'll never get them and its not worth the cost to attempt to do so. If this is something low priority to a voter but they want to feel it's there on some level ('would he even fight back if we were attacked?', 'do they care about British jobs?') I feel like this can be met with very little effort

(I appreciate the responding at face value on this!)

As Koogs says: it's bad that this person who has written and published books about herself can't spell 'wept'.

Worse still is the possibility it may be an affectation

Possibly - but a hard affectation to invent?

re discussion above:

Anvil: you are bashing at a door that has been open for at least 80 years. Everyone on 'the Left' has always talked about their patriotism or talked fondly and favourably about Britain.

There is a long tradition of people on the Left doing this, mirrored by an equally long tradition of people asking why nobody on the Left is doing it. It's a kind of cognitive dissonance.

I knew this was true in present-day terms but it was enlightening to find it outlined in historical terms by Anthony Barnett, I believe. I read this essay in ... 1993 !

c.15 years later a Labour PM, who had once edited a Gramscian publication, was publicly urging all Britons to plant a Union Flag in their front garden.

The idea persists that 'the Left is not comfortable with patriotism' and 'it would be smart politics for the Left to talk about patriotism'. The single person I would most associate with inanely repeating this for 30 years, against all evidence of what was actually being done and said, is Freedland.

The main reason the idea persists is that public discourse in our society is distorted and does not reflect reality. This in turn serves particular interests.

My values are British values: work must be rewarded, public services need protecting, and vested interests must never hold our country back.

— Ed Miliband (@Ed_Miliband) November 13, 2014

Ed Miliband, 2011:

Let’s be clear about one thing. The problem isn’t the people of Britain. I saw it when I met our troops in Afghanistan.

Brave men and women. Called to serve our country. At this moment, as we meet in the comfort of this hall, hundreds, thousands of our troops are risking their lives. In harm’s way, so far from home. We should think of them today and every day. Let’s all thank them and acknowledge the heroism they show on behalf of our country.

And as always in our history, we see the true British character in moments of crisis. We saw it during the riots. It was a terrible moment for Britain.

People looting shops, burning cars. It even happened right by my old school. But for every person that looted, there were hundreds, thousands who said this will not stand and came out to help with the clean up. I saw it in Manchester, people of all generations, who came out the next morning to get the city back on its feet. Those young people with the brooms. Those young people who join us at Conference today. And let us celebrate what they did.

Let us celebrate too those brave police officers who worked day and night to bring order to our streets. They put themselves in harm’s way and we should thank them for it. Citizens and public servants alike.

Theirs are the true values of Britain.

They are the true face of Britain.

Progressive Patriotism seems to be thriving. I heard the other day something like in the last decade 65 countries have constructed large scale walls/borders where previously it was only a conceptual border. They should have got a giant John Bull to drunkenly pass out and shit its pants and lie there comatose for the entire game at West Ham vs Watford last night, you see anyone can do opening ceremonies.

ffs Ed was such a fool, he didn't get any thanks nor respect for playing with nationalism, they just took the piss out of him for being Jewish.

Years after Ed Miliband's relentless talk of British values, a New Statesman article says:

Corbyn is a decent man, part of a maverick English Labour tradition that includes Michael Foot, Tony Benn and perhaps Ed Miliband, but all four of them are metropolitan intellectuals who could never or never will understand why so many ordinary people are passionate about their country.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/why-are-so-many-left-embarrassed-patriotism

It's basically lazy, ignorant garbage talk and it deserves Calzino treatment.

Called to serve our country.

factually incorrect

looting, rioting = not British
cleaning up, drinking tea out of racist mugs = British

Thanks Pinefox, I'm now reconsidering my position. After reading Miliband's insipid garbage I am now of the belief that politicians should use as few words as possible, and preferably none at all other than yes and no

you can't do faux nationalism it is transparent even to the dumbest of racists, you are either a racist prick like boris or you aren't. If you try fake it you just look desperate and weak and the angry middle class white racist with regional accent knows you are going call them a moronic bigot behind their back. nobody is fooled by tortuously conceived notions of neo/progressive/jazz-fusion patriotism or whatever, it failed badly for Ed and made him look like a weak idiot and he ought to be more embarrassed about than even the Russell Brand cringefest in his kitchen(s).

If we grant that, I'm wondering why I feel that it will work out better for Starmer than it did for Miliband.

I think my hunch is that Starmer believes lots of the bad stuff, where Miliband sometimes strained to or pretended to.

Unfortunately I think Starmer is a worse human being than Miliband. Maybe that's why I think he will succeed.

well Miliband appears to have a soul, albeit a slightly lost one