OMG I WANT THIS AMAZING RONALDINHO BOTTLE OPENER

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when that fire gets stoked, flame-outs occur

― deej, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

That really is a choice quote.

― i would just like to point out that i have been otm on this thread, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

ASPBURGLAR more like

― blueski, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

The Ronaldo bottle opener reminds of those rubbish football figure things with gigantic heads that were in shops a few years ago.

― jel --, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

Ronaldinho, I mean. Sorry.

― jel --, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

no talkin bad 'bout bobble-heads!

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:13 (nineteen years ago)

He doesn't mean bobbleheads, he means Corinthians:

http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/images/ruud-gullit-miniature.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

That really is a choice quote.

theres something v. poetic about the mixed metaphor. And i appreciate the passive voice. that quote is enjoyed by me.

― deej, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

Those things were pretty offensive to free-breakfast-cereal-toy makers.

― Frogman Henry, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

Ronaldinho Corinthian:

http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/microstars/microstars-MC6840.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

[quote]U R ALL DISINGENUOUS[quote]

There's a lot of ingenuousness on this thread from the British side, but very little disingenuousness.

― Mark C, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1219.jpg
WANT

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

you are mocking the dead

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

they should have done Puskas in monochrome. who ever saw him in colour, eh? it's not the same.

http://www.planetworldcup.com/LEGENDS/puskas.jpg

also, he should probabaly be a bit porkier.

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1209.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1203.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1076.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1030.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1199.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1215.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1213.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1211.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1201.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1205.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1080.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1026.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.corinthianseller.co.uk/prostars/prostars-PRO1219.jpg[/img]

WANT ALL OF THESE

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

That Puskas figure looks like he should be drawing a knife on a bouncer.

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

srsly that's not puskas, it's robert blake

― kenan, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

what, the leeds player?

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:53 (nineteen years ago)

Well allegedly after the Battle of Berne he smashed in a Brazillian official with a broken bottle.

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

'Diamond' Frankie Puskas was suspected of killing Jack 'The Hat' McVitie before the Krays got busted for it.

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

If those images had worked we'd have Schmeichel, Beckenbauer, Passarella, Carlos Alberto, Maldini, Roy Keane, Best, Stoichkov, Platini, Cruyff, Maradonna, Garrincha and Puskas all together. (Stoichkov and Platini on the bench.)

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

Dom, you still haven't started that 'great footballers of the 90's' thread.

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

"img" instead of "image" inside the square brackets was yr undoing, Nick.

― Pashmina, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

Cruyff, looks kinda like that French actor dude.

― jel --, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

That Garrincha one is actually amazing.

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

Passarella looks like he's about to spit at you.

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

Not sure they've got Garrincha's legs right.

― unfished business, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

Nick, you've picked too many Fancy Dans. where's Souey? where's Paul Mariner?

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

I would just like to point out that i would just like to point out that i have been otm on this thread has been otm in this thread

― Matt, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

Hem Hem

― Madchen, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

Beardsley. Now there was a chin.

― Matt, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

Roy Keane is my token non-fancy-dan.

I've just bid on Garrincha and Puskas on eBay. Stop me please.

― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

Stop that at once.

― Matt, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

Main Entry: dis·in·gen·u·ous
Pronunciation: "dis-in-'jen-y&-w&s, -yü-&s-
Function: adjective
: lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : CALCULATING
- dis·in·gen·u·ous·ly adverb
- dis·in·gen·u·ous·ness noun

― HI DERE, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

i never that

― blueski, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

i was, and am, full of candour. i resent the disingenuous accusation more than the racist one, because it sounds like you actually mean it.

yeah i put the 'u' in.

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 23 March 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

Who among us can open a beer with their teeth?
Thay's MY fucking question.

― aimurchie, Friday, 23 March 2007 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

me!

― tom, Friday, 23 March 2007 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

Prove it.

― aimurchie, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:13 (nineteen years ago)

i used to be able to. then i chipped one of my molars.

haven't looked at the rest of this thread. did i miss much?

[ducks]

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:35 (nineteen years ago)

Dan, I know what it means, thanks, which is why I was able to point out you're completely wrong.

― Mark C, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

fwiw, I thought Nabisco said something rather illuminating in the Asian Representations thread:

I think the big US/UK difference in representation is not only that the UK has a much more significant subcontinental population, but also that you guys are well past the point where lots and lots of those people are British-born and integrated into society and really very well maybe "just like white British people, with only skin color setting them apart" or whatever was said up there. Whereas I think the US is just getting to that transition over the past years. Up until some point in the 80s, the image of people from the subcontinent would definitely be as an immigrant population, including lots of urban clusters in "stereotypical" new-immigrant jobs (like cab driving or whatever) -- but very shortly after that, for TONS of younger people, the main face of, say, Indians mostly involves the children of middle-class immigrants dotted around suburbs and totally integrated into America. Which is more the Harold and Kumar vision, and most anyone that age that goes to college is going to be completely used to seeing Indians that way. (Cf the same transition in thinking/expectations/stereotypes of East Asians happening a lot earlier.)

(In fact even way pre-Kumar teen movies integrated that kind of role into them, though often in kind of a goofy way -- like it's not a coincidence that Harold is the uptight one and Kumar's depicted as the weirdo instigator -- or often in terms of kids of immigrants being wealthy/fancy, like the "Persian mafia" in Clueless. Anyway point being young Americans have totally grown up for a while now not feeling TOO much difference between themselves and the children of immigrants their parents would think of as distinctly foreign.)

nabisco on Friday, 23 March 2007 20:40

Though I sit firmly in the camp that the bottle opener's place in a lineage of racist imagery makes it a terrible move on the part of the manufacturer, and that there is a certain level of disingenuousness coming from certain posters here, I think Nabisco makes an interesting point that might put this discussion in new light.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:46 (nineteen years ago)

But ha, Hoos, it's not like you're claiming SPAIN or the UK have so fully integrated a large Afro-Brazilian population that they don't think about these things anymore. (And P.S. on that other thread it's precisely BECAUSE the British feel they've integrated Hindus into society that they're sensitive about convenience-store cliches and comedy accents!)

― nabisco, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

Does the handsome football player get to have an opinion?

― aimurchie, Friday, 23 March 2007 23:56 (nineteen years ago)

Hoos, who is being disingenuous here? The people who seem to have been responsible for the outrage genuinely believe what they're saying - they're expressing surprise and astonishment at the strength of the racist reading of the bottle opener, not because they're racists themselves but because in our culture there's a lot less tangible expression of blackness in terms of history, identity, conflict etc etc. It exists, of course, but outside a couple of concrete examples which have existed within our lifetimes - the Black and White Minstrel Show, say, and Robinson's Golliwogs - we're less programmed to recognise these things.

So it's naive, definitely, ignorant, possibly, but most of all symbolic of a different culture. It's pretty much the definition of ingenuous, which is why I'm baffled that Dan throws around what is actually a pretty insulting word, all the more because he couldn't be more wrong.

― Mark C, Saturday, 24 March 2007 00:06 (nineteen years ago)

they're expressing surprise and astonishment at the strength of the racist reading of the bottle opener, not because they're racists themselves but because in our culture there's a lot less tangible expression of blackness in terms of history, identity, conflict etc etc. It exists, of course, but outside a couple of concrete examples which have existed within our lifetimes - the Black and White Minstrel Show, say, and Robinson's Golliwogs - we're less programmed to recognise these things.

I think you are absolutely correct here, Mark. What I'm referring to, and perhaps disingenousness is the wrong word here, is an attitude of incredulity (mostly displayed early in the thread) that this product has racist undertones. I'm inclined to believe that anyone who doesn't recognize this product's place in a racist lineage and that it thereby has racist undertones is either (as you say)

A) naive
B) ignorant
C) unable to comprehend because of cultural background
D) disingenous

I tend to give ILXors enough credit that I wouldn't consider anyone on this thread naive or ignorant, so obviously we're dealing with C or D here. Though Ethan, for example, might be playing at implying racism because he seems to enjoy that kind of thing, I don't think anyone here is seriously suggesting that the British on this thread are latently racist because of their inability to recognize the egregious racism in the product.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 00:20 (nineteen years ago)

Although to clarify, I don't think you're absolutely right that "they're expressing surprise and astonishment at the strength of the racist reading of the bottle opener," a good portion of the British here are expressing disagreement with the idea that there are racist undertones to the bottle opener. That's the rub. If it was simply "wow, i hadn't considered that (for whatever reason)" (which I heard from a measly two posters) I'd be silent. But from a good portion of posters we're getting IT'S JUST A BOTTLE OPENER OMG GET OVER IT. I donh't think that should stand.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 24 March 2007 00:33 (nineteen years ago)

I agree with you but I'm not sure who you're referring to (I have read the whole thread, but only once). The people who have been the primary movers on the "what's the fuss" side, like LJ and Ailsa, HAVE recognised the inherent racism.

You have to understand that when a British follower of football (who's not, for the sake of argument, a racist) is asked to consider the things they notice about Ronaldinho's appearance, the importance of various facets goes something like this:

(our of 100)
Big teeth: 98
Happy smile: 10
Long hair: 5
Sleepy eyes: 4
Muscular physique: 3
Blackness: 1

We know he's black; but in the context we know him - which is as one of the most talented footballers ever, whose games and goals we've seen countless times, who we've read about, admired, laughed at - the fact he's black is a virtual non-issue (this isn't disingenuous - it's true, though I can well understand why it's hard to imagine this). It really, honestly, truly is.

There are some Americans on this thread - and not all, as many do know well the footballer Ronaldinho - for whom the thread subject is first and foremost a black man whose most obvious physical feature is one uncomfortably reminiscent of a feature that has been caricatured in an overtly racist way for centuries. So of course they read it differently.

― Mark C, Saturday, 24 March 2007 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

from what i understand, i am white. but that's just what people tell me. i don't see colors.

― modestmickey, Saturday, 24 March 2007 01:11 (nineteen years ago)

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