Re-essentializing would consist of saying 'this is who we really are and what we need to own up to, whether we like it or not' à la Jordan Peterson, and the author specifically critiques that particular 'solution' to the 'crisis' of masculinity. The idea that 'men' should be strong enough to cope with whatever life throws their way – not just without 'bitching' about it but also by openly relishing the challenge – is a banal and uncontroversial toxic masculine trope, no ('boys don't cry', etc.)?
― pomenitul, Monday, 13 July 2020 13:45 (three years ago) link
“just that the way Berman expressed them feel distinctly specific to the weight of traditional masculine expectation or whatever.“
Absolutely. And put that in the context of his parents, where being a man in the mold of his male role model is inseparable from being a kind of monster. Adds another layer to loving being his mother’s son - he did not love being his fathers son.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 13:45 (three years ago) link
absolutely. it was always a sad album to me but the weight of it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning in particular for some reason and the ways in which it did brought this thread to mind
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 13:50 (three years ago) link
It does, Tracer, but it also bells the cat (for me) re. the attitude of ennobled pain. I had a couple of 'wait... I do that' moments when reading.
― rb (soda), Monday, 13 July 2020 14:45 (three years ago) link
i think that essay sucks now tbh, tracer otm
― carin' (map), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
Looks like that "carrying a desk" essay is the same one unperson linked in a year or so ago
Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread
I don't think my thoughts on it have changed
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
that guy seems vain and joyless, a weird and bad combination
― carin' (map), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:10 (three years ago) link
I don't think "everyone else has it worse, suck it up loser" (which many replies seem to boil down to) is a good answer to this piece
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:11 (three years ago) link
"vain and joyless" is not a weird combination at all!
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:12 (three years ago) link
it's v funny to go through both times it was posted and have multiple posters find aspects resonant and others insist it's bullshit. OK!
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:13 (three years ago) link
Here, as elsewhere, ethics is a zero-sum game. Always has been, always will be, n'est-ce pas?
― pomenitul, Monday, 13 July 2020 15:13 (three years ago) link
part of a response from the other thread
i've never felt at home in my body either but that's my issue and it does nothing to change the fact that the world i live in has long been built around making white cishet people like me as safe and comfortable as possible to the detriment of everyone else
When I was volunteering for a mental health crisis line in another city, it was hard not to notice that relatively few young men called in, to the extent that when one did you kind of instantly perk up and wait to hear something out of the ordinary, or even anticipate that they might be a prank caller, which did happen from time to time. And I have to admit that sometimes I had to battle my own inclination to think of their problems as more trivial than other demographics' in order to do the gig effectively.
I think about that when I read responses like bg's here. "other people have it harder, the world was made for and by your people, you're losing life at the lowest difficulty level" etc type shit is not persuasive and not helpful and yes smacks to me of macho bullshit in its own way
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:24 (three years ago) link
you can't grapple with maleness and masculinity if you don't provide room for male angst, male-dominated spaces, and male-dominated discussions
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:25 (three years ago) link
maybe not weird definitely bad though xp.
men could stand to show themselves a little more love and kindness tbr
― carin' (map), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:28 (three years ago) link
on that I have no disagreement, the q is how to foster that effectively. I don't have an answer to that besides the fact that the sneering dismissal you see too often from people for whom these issues (supposedly) don't arise for them *as individuals* is deeply tiresome and depressing
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:32 (three years ago) link
yeah i agree with that
― carin' (map), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:32 (three years ago) link
crut, I am not exactly seeing a paucity of male-dominated discussions (here or elsewhere)
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 13 July 2020 15:45 (three years ago) link
In the attention economy of contemporary discourse, talking about one thing means not talking about another, possibly more pressing, thing. The solution we've taken to espousing is a different kind of utilitarianism whereby you prioritize the hardships of oppressed groups with little to no regard for a favoured group's outliers. This is a logical stance, of course, but it becomes problematic when said outliers turn out to be far more numerous than first meets the eye, and this is before we even meditate on the value of individual suffering.
― pomenitul, Monday, 13 July 2020 15:46 (three years ago) link
"white male" as "the lowest difficulty setting" also pretty much ignores class. I would venture that white woman daughter of investment bankers might be an "easier difficulty setting" than white male from family where no one went to college. And the whole "if you are losing at life as a white male it's your own fault" seems not that far away from blaming the poor for their poverty in some cases.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
And I know this is tacitly about the US, but 'white Moldovan male in Chișinău', for example, is not a desirable thing to be, generally speaking.
― pomenitul, Monday, 13 July 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
... and this is why Gregory and Travis McMichael deserve our sympathy, really
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 13 July 2020 17:03 (three years ago) link
I don't think that's what man alive was saying.
― pomenitul, Monday, 13 July 2020 17:05 (three years ago) link
damn man alive you didn't have to go after taylor swift like that
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 17:08 (three years ago) link
honestly Dan I don't understand how you could possibly get that from what I said. Complete piece of shit murderers don't deserve sympathy. Retired cops also don't tend to be poor fwiw.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 13 July 2020 17:14 (three years ago) link
tag yourself i'm lazy
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElhABywU8AEWtjr?format=jpg&name=900x900
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link
nervous stolid combo
― Politically homely (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
don't have that kind of chair so idk
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:17 (three years ago) link
what is a "good sort"
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:19 (three years ago) link
earnest possibly religious and/or naive imo
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
a mingenue (male ingenue)
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, October 29, 2020 11:19 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
likeable person
― Politically homely (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:28 (three years ago) link
people actually still say that in British English
― Politically homely (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:29 (three years ago) link
i've heard it before (in the context of british English) and I've always assumed it meant something along those lines but wasn't sure if it had some particular subtext (e.g. agreeable or deferential)
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:33 (three years ago) link
which I guess is closer to what map said
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
but also I assume one of those britishisms where the meaning can change with a very slight change in inflection and context
i have no idea tbr i just assumed it had a tinge of "bless their heart" to it
― Give me a Chad Smith-type feel (map), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:35 (three years ago) link
right, like "Oh, she's marrying John? ...well, he's a good sort" etc.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 29 October 2020 18:37 (three years ago) link
it’s an absence of the other 3 things
― brimstead, Thursday, 29 October 2020 21:03 (three years ago) link
or the harmonious balance thereof
― brimstead, Thursday, 29 October 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link
good sort dude doing a bad job of hiding his dark secrets imo
― timber euros (seandalai), Friday, 30 October 2020 01:44 (three years ago) link
I found this article fascinating.
This way of understanding what it means to be a guy, the particular masculine code and set of virtues it espouses, the heroes it holds up for emulation and admiration: none of this appeared in a vacuum. All of it is deeply rooted in the past couple of decades of American history, in everything from the constant imperial wars overseas and their long-term effects to the rising gap between those with college degrees and those without. There are longer-term precedents and archetypes at play as well, and I’ll talk about them, but this all crystallized in the very recent past. It’s a genuinely 21st-century American development, and I want to explore what it means.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Sunday, 6 December 2020 22:05 (three years ago) link
It was linked on the Bro Culture thread.
My question after reading it was: to what extent is this behaviour inextricable from the right-wing/conservative mindset?
― Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 6 December 2020 22:21 (three years ago) link
I didn’t buy the transition in that article that seems to be the thesis statement
“ The tactical lifestyle craze, a natural outgrowth of this particular slice of Bro Culture, is the logical endpoint of all this. ”
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 14:24 (three years ago) link
I mean how is that the "logical endpoint"? It's like saying religious fundamentalism is the logical endpoint of all religion. Certainly it can go in that direction, but more often it doesn't.
What I liked in the article is that the author actually gets at what's appealing about these "bro cultures," which I don't think is touched on often enough.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 16 December 2020 14:27 (three years ago) link
I do not for one second buy the idea that this is a new phenomenon in our broader culture from the past 20 years.
For example: Zubaz happened while I was in high school
― DJP, Wednesday, 16 December 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
The article's version of Bro Culture is closer to fascist culture than the version offered by the sillier posters on this message board, which is that fascism = anything short of open borders & the elimination of nation-states.
― All cars are bad (Euler), Thursday, 17 December 2020 11:12 (three years ago) link
I mean, you're an Islamophobe, so pretty much anything you say about any issue doesn't carry much weight with the true left of this board anyway.
― "Bi" Dong A Ban He Try (the table is the table), Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:40 (three years ago) link
I mean, you're an anti-semite, so pretty much anything you say about any issue doesn't any weight with anyone good of this board anyway.
― All cars are bad (Euler), Thursday, 17 December 2020 15:50 (three years ago) link
I was going to post something about how despite being offended by Sanpaku's "excess immigration is why labor conditions are bad for real Americans" and "the first few weeks of the pandemic proved democracy is bad" (these are paraphrases if you need that pointed out) posts I don't think he's a fascist, he's more like a nationalist authoritarian technocrat. But idk, I'm not a political theorist, is that not fascism?
― loose Orwellian mobs (rob), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:29 (three years ago) link
I have no idea what Sanpaku posted, and I'm no political theorist either. But I think that the key to fascism is the promotion of violence as a good. Fascisms can differ on what that violence is directed against, but the idolatry of the warrior is its heart.
― All cars are bad (Euler), Thursday, 17 December 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link