US Politics, June 2020 — You have to dominate.

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (2219 of them)

damn, didn't realize this was a carl bernstein joint. it really is like an extended, article-length bitch slap, it's pretty amazing

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 29 June 2020 22:55 (five years ago)

i guess if there is any substance to rumors that GOP operatives are talking about dumping trump, they might attempt to use the Trump Transcripts as the triggering event

One person familiar with almost all the conversations with the leaders of Russia, Turkey, Canada, Australia and western Europe described the calls cumulatively as 'abominations' so grievous to US national security interests that if members of Congress heard from witnesses to the actual conversations or read the texts and contemporaneous notes, even many senior Republican members would no longer be able to retain confidence in the President.

...In addition to rough, voice-generated software transcription, almost all of Trump's telephone conversations with Putin, Erdogan and leaders of the western alliance were supplemented and documented by extensive contemporaneous note-taking (and, often, summaries) prepared by Fiona Hill, deputy assistant to the President and senior NSC director for Europe and Russia until her resignation last year. Hill listened to most of the President's calls with Putin, Erdogan and the European leaders, according to her closed-door testimony before the House Intelligence Committee last November.

...Elements of that testimony by Hill, if re-examined by Congressional investigators, might provide a detailed road-map of the President's extensively-documented conversations, the sources said. White House and intelligence officials familiar with the voice-generated transcriptions and underlying documents agreed that their contents could be devastating to the President's standing with members of the Congress of both parties -- and the public -- if revealed in great detail. (There is little doubt that Trump would invoke executive privilege to keep the conversations private. However, some former officials with detailed knowledge of many of the conversations might be willing to testify about them, sources said.)

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:00 (five years ago)

Trump himself is, curiously, like a walking/talking Kennedy assassination plot: if so many people know all this stuff, have seen this first-hand, including who knows how many people in other countries, allies and enemies alike, then how have all of these people, surely hundreds of them, managed to stay quiet about this for so long? Though the story about the calls, I could have sworn that's old news. Honestly, this stuff is all so insane that they could just rerun the same news stories years later and I would be just as shocked.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 29 June 2020 23:04 (five years ago)

he just tweeted this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebs9G-PWAAIYaIJ?format=jpg&name=medium

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zUoT5AxFpRs/maxresdefault.jpg

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:06 (five years ago)

(he didn't tweet the second picture)

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:07 (five years ago)

They stay quiet because they are either pleased as punch this is happening, actively looking for an angle to cash in on it, or both.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:07 (five years ago)

Including leaders and their people around the world? Why aren't they leaking? Or are they?

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 29 June 2020 23:09 (five years ago)

Like, the more that comes out, every single day, the worse he looks, so if someone likes making him look bad, why not make him look worse?

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 29 June 2020 23:09 (five years ago)

Why would they leak what? The stories like this that have been leaking since he first got ahold of a secure oval office phone line?

sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:18 (five years ago)

i think the underlying motive of the article, the motivation of the "senior officials" who talked to bernstein, is to get democrats to open up an congressional investigation and subpoena the transcripts, which he'd claim executive privilege on, leading to testimony by at least one of them.

why now? after all this? those transcripts have been there since day 1.

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:21 (five years ago)

Obviously foreign leaders would not want to give future US presidents reason to think that their confidentiality and security are subject to judgement calls

assert (MatthewK), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:26 (five years ago)

February 2019:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/02/what-we-know-so-far-about-trumps-phone-calls-with-foreign-leaders/

sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:29 (five years ago)

why now? after all this?

rats, ship, etc.

If November goes the way they fear/hope, they want to have been on the "right side of history." Even if the only person who knows is Carl Bernstein. (Except they'll all out themselves when they write their own books.)

a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:30 (five years ago)

the interesting part to me is the transcripts of the calls, the details about Fiona Hill taking copious supplementary notes, and the idea that they could be subject to part of an inquiry. maybe those facts have been around forever, but i haven't heard anything about it (and don't see anything about that in the feb 2017 WashPost article either)

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:32 (five years ago)

(Except they'll all out themselves when they write their own books.)

heh, yeah i think one possible underlying motive for "why now?" is that at least one of them has an upcoming book to promote and a highly visible appearance in front of a congressional panel might be good for that

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:34 (five years ago)

I mean, I get why broadly speaking people don't leak, but clearly at least one person in America has compunctions about leaking, I'm just surprised many countries don't have that one person who wants to leak that Trump farted on a call or maybe something less specific. Though I assume that happens all the time.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 29 June 2020 23:35 (five years ago)

Yeah I recall the Aus press for example talking about how Trump had acted like a tatrumy baby to Turnbull when he first got in, because our PM basically dared to say no to him and he didnt know how to process it. It wasnt a secret even at the time. (some xposts)

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:39 (five years ago)

I wonder if we’ll find out who the nyt op ed was. Feels like things have gotten bad enough since that a person who felt that way would be too ashamed to unmask now.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:40 (five years ago)

Here's that paywalled Times piece:

Primed by Trump, militias gear up for ‘stolen’ US election
With the president weaponising fears of electoral fraud, armed groups are becoming increasingly paranoid
Laura Pullman, New York | Josh Glancy, Washington

Chris Hill is armed and ready for revolution. If Joe Biden beats Donald Trump in November, the former US marine believes the Democrats will have fraudulently won the presidential election, and he will not take it lying down.

“If there’s evidence that the vote was rigged and manipulated, I’d consider that grounds for open rebellion,” said Hill, the leader of the Georgia Security Force Three Percenters, a militia group.

“We’ll take our arms and our counsel and reclaim this country and our rights. If you try to do this at the ballot box and it doesn’t work, you go to the bullets.”

As talk grows in America of a dangerous stand-off after the election on November 3, and Trump escalates claims that it will be a fraud, Hill is ready to face the worst in support of the president. “We’ll go wherever we’re needed. Wherever that flashpoint may be, we’ll be there with sufficient arms, counsel and provisions,” the 45-year-old said from his home near Atlanta.

Hill, whose “codename”, Blood Agent, is tattooed on his arm, dons military fatigues and takes his members on field-training exercises every month. “We go over shit-hit-the-fan scenarios,” said the married father of two, who works as a paralegal. “We do fitness, survival, infantryman skills, military tactics, patrolling, marksmanship, communications and combat lifesaving medical first aid.

“You’ve got to be able to hunt, fish, trap, snare, cultivate crops. You can’t wage war on an empty stomach. Everybody’s always improving on their weaponry. Stocking up so that we have food, water and sufficient ammunition to defend ourselves and our state against government tyranny.”

The group, which is anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim and anti-abortion, has protested against the building of a mosque and rallied to protect Confederate cemeteries. Hill’s great fear is a new president treading on his right to bear arms: “If Biden wins and attempts to take away semi-automatic rifles on a national level, there will be blood.”

He claims that in Georgia alone there are about 400 “three percenters” who have at least 1,000 guns and more than 150,000 rounds of ammunition.

A corrupt election will be a “Lexington and Concord moment”, he said, referring to the battles in 1775 at the start of the American War of Independence — the conflict from which his militia draws its name, over a disputed claim that only 3% of American colonists took up arms against Great Britain.

This combustible remix of America’s creation myths is fuelled by a paranoia that flows from Trump. The president has seized on an increase in postal voting due to the lockdown to warn that a vast fraud lies ahead. “Because of mail-in ballots, 2020 will be the most rigged election in our nations history,” he tweeted on Monday. “Rigged 2020 election: millions of mail-in ballots will be printed by foreign countries, and others. It will be the scandal of our times!” he added.

The next day, on the campaign trail in Arizona, Trump told supporters that the vote will be “the most corrupt election in the history of our country and we cannot let this happen”. The president himself is registered to vote in Florida via an absentee ballot and public health experts in his administration have encouraged voting by post. But that has not stopped Trump stoking the fires. He has made 60 false claims about postal ballots since April, according to The New York Times.

The president’s critics debate his motives. Polls indicate that he lags behind Biden by about 10 percentage points after a poorly attended rally in Oklahoma last weekend and the release of a damning memoir by John Bolton, his former national security adviser.

Is he just psyching himself and his supporters for defeat as his poll ratings sag, or more sinisterly laying the groundwork to dispute the election result? Biden has suggested that Trump might refuse to leave the White House if he lost. “It’s my greatest concern, my single greatest concern. This president is going to try to steal this election,” he said this month.

Peter Nicholas, a political writer for The Atlantic magazine, pointed out in an article this month that Trump was a persistent rule-breaker and asked: “Would he honour one of the nation’s most precious norms — the peaceful transfer of power — if it meant admitting failure?”

The nightmare some envisage begins on election night. Although the arithmetic is complex — thanks to the number of states and their weighted importance in the electoral college system — a winner usually begins to emerge by the time the last polls close on the West Coast. What if, with postal votes more common this year, the counting takes much longer?

“The big concern is that Trump could use the period between election night and the ultimate announcement of winners in each state to claim that there’s fraud and to try to generate the belief that the counting is somehow being done in an unfair way,” said Rick Hasen, a law professor at the University of California, Irvine and author of Election Meltdown: Dirty Tricks, Distrust and the Threat to American Democracy. Hasen does not believe postal-voting fraud is significant. “If you look at the overall number of cases they’re low and very few are actually conspiracies to try and steal the election as opposed to a single individual casting a ballot belonging to a family member or something like that,” he said.

Unquestionably, however, Trump’s alarms about postal voting cut through to his fans and the militia groups. “It’s self-evident that on the left they just want to win — they don’t care how. It’s not who casts the votes that matters it’s who counts them, right?” said Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, former service personnel who see themselves as guardians of the constitution.

Rhodes, 55, and his members plan to patrol polling stations on November 3 in an effort to stamp out suspicious behaviour. “We’ll go undercover and look for people we think are committing voting fraud,” said the airborne veteran and Yale Law School graduate, who lives in Montana. “We’re looking for indicators that they’ve got people who aren’t US citizens voting; then we can go and suppress that behaviour by letting it be known that we’re watching. We’ll videotape them and turn it over to law enforcement.”

He added: “If Biden wins, I think a civil war is very likely because what do you do when you’ve got millions of people who reject our history, reject our constitution and want to impose Marxism on the country. We’re heading for conflict.”

In this world of far-right patriot groups, theories that the liberal billionaire George Soros owns the company that runs the voting machines, and can therefore fix the election result, are rife. They cite other culprits for election interference too: antifa (far-left anti-fascists), Black Lives Matter activists and illegal immigrants.

“The whole world view of the militia movement is based on conspiracy theories so it’s very easy for them to believe an election would be rigged to make sure a Democratic candidate, or just an establishment candidate, won,” said Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League’s Centre on Extremism. “It requires no mental reach at all for them.”

Pitcavage believes, however, that militia groups are unlikely to rise up violently after a Trump defeat. “Given the patterns of domestic violence over the past 25 years we’d be far more likely to find isolated incidents of violence by lone individuals, small informal groups or people breaking off from formal organised groups to do something more radical or violent,” he said.

but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 29 June 2020 23:48 (five years ago)

Re: the last sentence in that piece. That pattern of violent reaction makes the most sense to me.

It's damned easy to talk up the idea of "taking down the enemy" as a vengeful fantasy where you are the hero, especially talking to others who share the same fantasy. Figuring out how to do it without it resulting in an abject failure to accomplish anything, other than a few random people dying before you turn the gun on yourself, is damned hard.

iow, talk is cheap and its hard to start a revolution with five guys in camo.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 00:01 (five years ago)

Especially daunting when you realize there will be people shooting back at you.

nickn, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 00:44 (five years ago)

He claims that in Georgia alone there are about 400 “three percenters” who have at least 1,000 guns and more than 150,000 rounds of ammunition.

I love this conflation of gun collections and ammo stockpiles with effectiveness. Basically all these guys are basement branch davidians with a death wish.

sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 00:45 (five years ago)

These stupid camo motherfuckers can't even rally around a single coherent tipping point for their Revolutionary War re-enactment. Is it Trump losing a rigged election? Biden taking your guns? Moose-lums taking tour shitty jobs that nobody wants? Keep tootin' that crank, proud boys.

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 00:47 (five years ago)

“If there’s evidence that the vote was rigged and manipulated, I’d consider that grounds for open rebellion,” said Hill, the leader of the Georgia Security Force Three Percenters, a militia group.

this is a good reminder that when the articles come out after the election about voter suppression, headlines should try to make it very clear that the rigged and manipulated part of the vote was to the benefit of republicans

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 00:48 (five years ago)

that motherfucker really paraphrased malcolm x there huh.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 01:10 (five years ago)

don't other countries likely have recordings of these calls Trump had with leaders? surprised they haven't leaked from there.

akm, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 01:55 (five years ago)

See MatthewK’s post above

sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 02:05 (five years ago)

the married father of two, who works as a paralegal

This just immediately turned him into a character in some Office reboot for me. The paralegal who leads a militia on weekends.

a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 02:19 (five years ago)

"Rhodes, 55, and his members plan to patrol polling stations on November 3 in an effort to stamp out suspicious behaviour. “We’ll go undercover and look for people we think are committing voting fraud,” said the airborne veteran and Yale Law School graduate, who lives in Montana"

Yale Law School graduate

Dan S, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 02:31 (five years ago)

Paint ball hero, got stars in his eyes...

nickn, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 02:34 (five years ago)

I don't know, those Bundy Ranch assholes did OK for themselves. Until people are willing to arrest these gun-brandishing dickheads that storm state capitals and whatnot, I can see them getting pretty emboldened. And if people did arrest them I can see enough of their supporters freaking out enough to cause trouble. Consider folks like those St. Louis assholes. They pointed guns at protestors from their porch and double-downed on their justification. And those are just city lawyers in khakis. Dudes in camo living out in the woods are already several steps further gone.

I should say I think this kind of shit is a threat regardless of Trump or whatever catalyst. They're innately dangerous.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 02:57 (five years ago)

don't we have a separate thread for the "trump is going to win/there's going to be a race war after the election" stuff?

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 03:38 (five years ago)

They're definitely innately dangerous. Walking around with loaded weapons looking for a fight is dangerous.

I still think they're a bunch of yahoos. They can and will kill people, I have no doubt. But they're still a tiny number of delusional people. Your average joe suburbia might like to drink beer and bitch about communists, but they're mostly not going to start a war.

a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 03:43 (five years ago)

I mean as supposedly badass as Chris Kyle was, he got killed by someone he took to a gun range, so...

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 03:46 (five years ago)

Yep, cops may be the worst but they do seem to enjoy the fact that they have a monopoly on state sanctioned violence within US borders.

Evans on Hammond (evol j), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 03:47 (five years ago)

Historically, they haven't minded violence by citizens in agreement with them.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 04:17 (five years ago)

Iran has issued an arrest warrant for President Trump and 35 other people it says were involved in a drone strike that killed a top Iranian general in Baghdad this year and has asked for international help in detaining them https://t.co/0iF1l5uPAb

— The New York Times (@nytimes) June 30, 2020

wait til after the election, please, but after that, sure, swoop him away

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 06:22 (five years ago)

So much for Trump's shocking season five twist of showing up in Iran with autographed Glenn Frey solo records.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 12:44 (five years ago)

don't other countries likely have recordings of these calls Trump had with leaders? surprised they haven't leaked from there.

Why would anyone want to leak them?

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:04 (five years ago)

It would reflect pretty badly on the security services/ civil services of the countries in question if anything leaked.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:06 (five years ago)

Right, and other countries want to take advantage of American weakness for their own interests. Leaking would not help with that.

Joey Corona (Euler), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:07 (five years ago)

Oh yes, absolutely, having some absolute clown in the White House can be used to their advantage and, at the end of the day, he's the USA's problem not theirs.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:09 (five years ago)

The biggest barrier against Trump-related leaks would seem to be potential leakers asking themselves this question: who is likely to suffer greater consequences from this bombshell, Donald Trump or myself?

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:24 (five years ago)

It would reflect pretty badly on the security services/ civil services of the countries in question if anything leaked.

The same thing holds true domestically, and yet, it happens!

My point is that you'd think inevitably *someone* would want to leak them, because that is human nature. Clearly plenty of people have leaked plenty of things about Trump (and not been caught). Why? To make him look bad. Why? For power? Not necessarily. We're on an internet forum right now. People shitpost and trash talk on the internet because they can. I'm not saying (for example) Scott Morrison would hold some press conference and play a tape, but there are lots of people on all of these calls, and lots of readouts. Just as the leaks that have come out haven't exactly lead their targets back to their respective sources (except when Trump stupidly does it himself), it would be relatively easy to leak damaging or embarrassing material about Trump without revealing its specific source. Why? Because even if he's not necessarily their problem, he's a huge asshole that trash talks everyone else and deserves it.

But of course, at the same time he is everyone's problem, and the notion that a significant number of nations would want Trump in office to be used to their advantage seems unlikely. Israel, maybe, or Brazil, certainly Russia and China, but not, like Canada, or Mexico, or France or Germany or lots of other countries who are hurt, set back or threatened by his ineptitude. But then, I suppose there's a good chance he doesn't talk to those countries anymore.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:34 (five years ago)

(I mean, I get it, I get why this doesn't happen, but I'm still surprised it doesn't happen. Mark Burnett can't be the only one sitting on shit from the set of "The Apprentice," and yet I guess that stuff is locked down tight.")

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:36 (five years ago)

Yeah I’d be tempted to leak just to try and help lessen the possibility that I’d have to spend four more years listening to this moron on the phone

Evans on Hammond (evol j), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:38 (five years ago)

I keep thinking that it's in the public interest for me to release this video of Trump strangling a maître d' but then I'm like, is it worth suffering death threats for the rest of my life for the half day of outrage it generates before something more outrageous supplants it in the news cycle?

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:39 (five years ago)

Maybe sign it "anonymous."

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:40 (five years ago)

Because even if he's not necessarily their problem, he's a huge asshole that trash talks everyone else and deserves it.

Let Americans do it then, the rest of the world has its own issues to deal with.

But of course, at the same time he is everyone's problem, and the notion that a significant number of nations would want Trump in office to be used to their advantage seems unlikely. Israel, maybe, or Brazil, certainly Russia and China, but not, like Canada, or Mexico, or France or Germany or lots of other countries who are hurt, set back or threatened by his ineptitude. But then, I suppose there's a good chance he doesn't talk to those countries anymore.

It's not a case of wanting Trump in office, it's up to the USA to get rid of Trump. He's not going to be there forever and it's to no-one's advantage to have the next US president wondering whether his communications with other world leaders is subject to be leaked because some civil servant in another country doesn't like him.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:45 (five years ago)

Yeah, I mean, the USA is everyone's problem, but I just checked a few French newspapers & the only stories about the USA are about the rona, the Golden State killer, & the Russian-funded bounties on American soldiers. The US president is not a major focus of our media attention.

Joey Corona (Euler), Tuesday, 30 June 2020 13:51 (five years ago)


This thread has been locked by an administrator

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.