Rolling Thread on Race 2020

are Jews bipoc

in most cases no, we are not

why isn't it IBPOC

fwiw in Canada, I've seen a push to order it this way

xp sorry to belabor but this is actually pertinent to me and i would like clarification...

do you mean by 'in most cases no' that most jews themselves aren't BIPOC but some are (i.e. darker skinned sephardi), or that certain people would consider jews 'POC' and certain people would not? i have heard differing views on the latter point.

What is a context where it would be necessary to use this term, i.e. where you need to refer to all people of colour as a group but also need to highly the distinctiveness of two sub-groups?

fwiw in Canada, I've seen a push to order it this way

What is the argument for using this term in Canada? What is the unique relationship to white supremacy held by black Canadians vs all other people of colour? I understand that slavery existed in the Canadian colonies until a few decades prior to Confederation, but I don't think the majority of black Canadians are descendants of slaves or that anti-black policy plays the same kind of foundational role in Canadian nationhood?

*highlight

xpost I am not an expert on Canada or Canadian histsory, but I was under the impression that the majority of Black Canadians trace their ancestry to Black communities throughout the New World (Jamaica, Haiti, Guyana, Trinidad, etc) that were originally established as slave colonies.

I can't speak to the specific legal or policy challenges those groups have encountered as Canadians; but I don't think it's like, wildly intellectually dishonest to characterize them as "Canadian Descendants of Slavery" just because the 'slavery' part was historically and geographically distant from the 'Canadian' part.

xpost to esby— from my understanding, only Jews that are racialized (as Black, Latino, etc) would be considered BIPOC.

xposts to Sund4r and bernard— Bernard's got it right— many who escaped the colonies made their way to Canada because the US was such an obvious shitshow, what with the whole slavery into Jim Crow thing.

xpost just to Sund4r: I think that the highlighting of distinctiveness comes from the fact that these discourses often originate in academic and left circles in the US, which rightly view the US as being founded on dual original sins, namely the genocide of the Indigenous population and chattel slavery. Thus, these two groups get highlighted as a way of bringing forth the ways in which those histories have continued unabated.

That's fair, bernard. I wasn't being accurate: "descendants of Canadian slaves" is closer to what I meant. I do think there's a difference from the American 'original sin' in this regard but idk, insofar as we are still subjects of the Crown, maybe there isn't?

I can't do it justice right now, but the first chapter of Robin Maynard's book Policing Black Lives is a good historical summary of anti-blackness in Canada. One thing that struck me was how extensive formal segregation was (e.g., in the military during both world wars, in schools, orphanages).

OK, I'll look into it, thanks for the recommendation. I was thinking of e.g. the history of the Chinese in Canada, with differential pay on the railroad, the head tax, the inability to vote.

tbc I think the questions you asked are worth raising. My knowledge of Canadian history is extremely patchy, so I found the chapter I mentioned illuminating but I didn't raise it as a counterpoint.

Take some protests right now in Van around BLM and the city's destruction of Hogan's Alley— and that's just more recent history, too. The Maynard book is good.

btw it's Robyn Maynard (not Robin)

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/segregation-of-asian-canadians
xps

I never heard people saying 'never heard 'BIPOC' until a month ago' until a couple of years ago, now the sentiment is everywhere

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, June 28, 2020 12:25 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

1st use on ilx is less than 3 weeks ago... do you work in the laboratory that invents these terms???? what do you ppl do exactly???

esby shut the fuck up

^^^^
This.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

what do you ppl do exactly?

I am authentically surprised that "BIPOC" only appears on ILX so recently, I don't think of it as brand-new!

I think I am a BIPOC, being a Latino, but I don't know for sure. I'd never heard the term until recently.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, June 29, 2020 1:09 PM bookmarkflaglink

this is a dude who's done nothing but troll for the last year and just decided to have real conversations in the last week, so hence the harsh reaction.

hey, dumb question: can anyone recommend a place to get Black Lives Matter apparel online that benefits black-owned businesses? The BLM webshop doesn't have much.

I've never heard of BIPOC until the last month and it sounds like some kind of expressway ("A tractor-trailer accident at the I-95 merge has traffic backing up all the way to the BIPOC this afternoon.") or ancient monster ("BEWARE THE BIPOC!"). I'll probably just say Black or First Nations or whatever instead.

I mean, he replied to snark with snark. I don't think "BIPOC" has been a widely used and understood term for ages among the general population.

― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:09 AM (thirty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

for real. thank you. some of you can actually fix your tone. + no, it demonstrably hasn't been in use among the near entirety of the general public for more than about a month.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=bipoc

if you have been using the word "BIPOC" so long in your peer group that it is passe, there's a good chance you either know or are yourself the originator of the term.

i work with arts organizations who focus on inclusivity and moving the culture forward, what do you do exactly?
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:18 AM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i am a private individual who has no singular or group interest in workshopping what words are ok for people to use or what thoughts are ok for people to think. if your mission is to move the culture forward i would strongly suggest avoiding dehumanizing jargon terms like "BIPOC".

again, what was wrong with "POC"? at least when you pronounce "P" "O" "C" it is easy to remember that you are talking about "P"eople.... with BIPOC you are just talking about 'BIPOC'. i don't want to speak for any of my friends but i don't think suddenly becoming BIPOC is helpful to them in any way.

this is a dude who's done nothing but troll for the last year and just decided to have real conversations in the last week, so hence the harsh reaction.

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:39 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

i am not a troll, my opinions quite often differ from the groupthink of this board and i don't often have the energy to get in a big citation battle about it, but that doesn't mean i'm wrong and any of you guys are right lol. it's always the opposite. i'm ahead of my time. in years 'BIPOC' will undoubtedly itself become outdated and racist and i will be hipsterring loudly about how i was against adopting the term from the very start.

See, this is why Brad's response was the correct one: engaging with this disingenuous fuck is always a bad move.

my opinions quite often differ from the groupthink of this board

popular troll belief

Also popular troll move to not be interested in the least of learning about why this particular term might be gaining traction. No curiosity at all.

Black people who don't like/want to use POC just tend to call themselves "Black", in my experience

i am a private individual who has no singular or group interest in workshopping what words are ok for people to use or what thoughts are ok for people to think. if your mission is to move the culture forward i would strongly suggest avoiding dehumanizing jargon terms like "BIPOC".

anyway, where do i buy a shirt?

expect the thoughtpolice shortly

*refreshes site new answers* 😎

now who's ready to abolish the police

again, what was wrong with "POC"? at least when you pronounce "P" "O" "C" it is easy to remember that you are talking about "P"eople.... with BIPOC you are just talking about 'BIPOC'. i don't want to speak for any of my friends but i don't think suddenly becoming BIPOC is helpful to them in any way.

I don't like POC but I use POC when talking to white allies, because it seems to be the most palatable to white sensibilities. I recognize that POC is a loaded and problematic term... To misquote W. Kamau Bell, it's just an 'of' away from colored people. But: fragility shit. I use 'brown' when I'm with other brown people, although some white people have lately decided to inform me that I shouldn't be doing that.

I think that POC/BIPOC discussion is a kind of insidery correctness-policing and has been appropriated a woke-signal and symbolic argument among allies. When POC/BIPOC activists have the discussion about inclusive terms, it's generally about determining the contours of shared experiences and affinities; when white people have it, it's about controlling the language others should use in referring to themselves.

yeah BIPOC seems very "white people saying Latinx" to me

I can't speak for anyone else's experience or use of the word, but when I first learned about BIPOC the important thing I took away from it is how it's meant to include indigenous groups that might otherwise get left out of a given discussion.

i see mostly the black-led activist orgs i follow on instagram using "BIPOC" so idk

it's just an 'of' away from colored people.

Yes. I actually still prefer "non-white" or "visible minorities" bc they actually identify the reason we are putting all these people into one category. (It's not because we 'have colour'.)

what do you do exactly?

pwns libtards

Also popular troll move to not be interested in the least of learning about why this particular term might be gaining traction. No curiosity at all.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, June 29, 2020 11:58 AM (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

no curiosity? I've done nothing but ask questions about this word and have read all the replies, articles, bipoc project web site, etc. since inquiring... doesn't mean I have to adopt these virws for myself, I'm not allowed my skepticism or my own opinion? honestly, some of the posts you guys are directing at me are so misguided

i see mostly the black-led activist orgs i follow on instagram using "BIPOC" so idk

not really bothered one way or another but it does seem to be used almost exclusively online so this tracks

honestly,

Awwww, lonely guy just thinking baout things

Black people who don't like/want to use POC just tend to call themselves "Black", in my experience

This sort of gets at what I was asking about earlier. I can see contexts where it's important to specifically talk about black or indigenous people and can see contexts where it's important to discuss non-white people as a whole. I have trouble imagining actual irl situations where you need to refer to non-white people as a whole but also need to distinguish subgroups within the group that you are discussing as a whole.

To summarize from yesterday, it occurs to me that the core distinction between African-American and indigenous people vs other people of colour in the US context is that the first two groups did not choose to be American but had it forced on them via settler colonialism or slavery. In the Canadian context, where the majority of the black population did arrive via immigration (even by bernard's and table's descriptions), I'm less convinced of the necessary distinction vs other groups of immigrant minorities (who have often also experienced substantial segregation, violence, and discrimination, cf link on segregation of Asians). No question that the situation of First Nations is very different. (Only reason I raised the question was ron's comment on the suggested reordering in Canada; I haven't actually seen it anywhere except a couple of social media posts myself.) Anyway, I did note the name of the Maynard book and will look into it.

I haven't actually seen it anywhere except a couple of social media posts myself

True for me as well, in case that wasn't clear.

sorry for setting this off, my original q was out of genuine curiosity!

Ime "BIPOC" is usually shorthand in print vs writing out the whole thing? As far as I can remember hearing it in person, it's usually all pronounced out of respect. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in a movement/activism space say "BIPOC" but that's just my experience.

"QTPOC" on the other hand is pronounced "cutie-pok" and is--forgive me--cute!

yeah. to clarify, I don't want to shut down conversation about POC and BIPOC and say 'white people can't talk about this word that suddenly hit broader usage and may/may not be the correct word to use in varied contexts,' but instead to steer away from a really tedious correctness conversation

esby, the problem isn't that you're not curious. It's that your motives for being resistant to changes in language and terminology are murky at best. Why is it such a big deal to you?

(sorry to continue the tedious conversation)