Joe Biden, Senator from Citibank (oops, DELAWARE), to Run for President

maybe this was for the general politics thread

Harris presumably wouldn’t be on Biden’s bussing task force.

Harris would be perfect for him.

She'd eat Pence alive.

She'd eat Pence alive.

I dunno. Television debates often turn on style points.

Harris is much smarter than Pence, but Pence was and is a spawn of the media and he projects a 'cool' presence - to use McLuhan's term. This is a by-product of his being mostly an empty suit, but he knows his lines and can deliver them pretty well. He's spent thousands of hours speaking into microphones and saying nothing, but saying it in rounded thoughtful tones. For a television debate that's good enough.

Harris's speaking style is pretty average, even if her content is far better. She hasn't taken the time to polish her delivery, probably because she sees that as secondary to the parts of her job she sees as most important and enjoys most. Good oratory is very artful and getting good at it requires more practice than she has given to it.

She was a prosecutor; she'll do fine.

xp don't agree with that at all

Pence has a cool creepy empty composure, but she is more persuasive to me

plus if you expose Pence to bright light Gremlins come out

Harris is not Tim Kaine. Whatever her background -- and I agree with many ILE'ers -- she would destroy him in debate without becoming a yapping little thing like Kaine.

I should add that traditionally 'winning' a VP debate has pretty low payoff. Mainly her job would be to convince viewers she would make a good president, if needed. Because Biden is very old for the job and this will matter to voters more than does she trounce Pence. imo, she'd be smart to ignore Pence and the moderator(s) and just act like she's addressing a bunch of voters sitting in their living rooms.

She was a prosecutor

...and he's just a simple country Mayonnaise Golem.

more payoff when u think either President may not survive their second term

but in general, yes, Veep debates are low stakes

She'd probably destroy him in a debate but there are few things in American politics that matter less than a VP debate.

"I was really into this revanchist white nationalism thing the GOP had going on until someone who was going to have no actual power pwned it."

No one's arguing otherwise. xpost

debates in general, veep or Presidential, often have negligible effects. which is why Obama's bedshitting in the first one in 2012 only caused temporary panic,but Romney's "47%" gaffe did a lot more to hurt his chances in the end.

Aimless, I couldn't disagree more that "Harris's speaking style is pretty average, even if her content is far better. She hasn't taken the time to polish her delivery"

I would hazard that you are responding strongly to her message, more than to the nuances of her delivery. But I cannot expect everyone to agree with me on this.

Harris's speaking style is pretty average

Disagree totally--that's what first attracted me to her.

which is why Obama's bedshitting in the first one in 2012 only caused temporary panic

I'd have to check, but I don't know how widespread the panic was; Andrew Sullivan shouldered enough panic for 31 states himself.

xxp yes don't agree because it's horseshit

To be clear, I'm not speaking of Harris's rhetoric, how her speeches are constructed, but her delivery, the pauses, the emphasis, the tone of her voice as she brings her voice to the written words, her body language, her eye movements, her gestures, her facial expressions. Those are all part of oratory. She's OK at this, but I say from what I've seen, she's no master of the dramatics and dynamics of speechifying. She'd have done much better in the primaries if she were.

I like listening to Harris exchange meaningless banter in interviews. With all due respect Aimless, I don't think you need to explain to us what we're responding to. I just like the sound of her voice.

"but her delivery, the pauses, the emphasis, the tone of her voice as she brings her voice to the written words, her body language, her eye movements, her gestures, her facial expressions"

fuck off

the way she swims, the relative measurements of her skull... all wrong..

Arguing over whether a cop is a good speaker like a couple of K-pop fans on Twitter.

another bad opinion

ilx is full of them

"Kamala Harris is not a great public speaker" is a bad reason to get upset at someone.

I'll speak for myself here. Saying Harris is not a great public speaker is perfectly fine. Explaining to me that I don't really think she's a good speaker, I'm responding to something other than what I think I'm responding to, that's not the same thing.

Harris has a very voice. Kind of reedy in a really refined way.

*very nice

xxxp not upset, but amazed that you want to still insert your opinion here

Glad you all have taken elocutionary courses

If only this thread could run for President

it's not 35 years old yet...but it kinda seems like it?

I like Kamala Harris but iirc her primary debate performances were pretty disappointing. Maybe she'd do better in a 1:1 though

Debates were fine! Policy was meh.

I hope for Pence's sake the virus doesn't prevent an audience for the debate, he can't be alone in a TV studio with a woman

didn't we do this "has a nice voice"/"doesn't have a nice voice" whinging like literally a year ago in the AOC thread and talk about vocal technique bullshit then and it became a clusterfuck?

the answer is always yes

very nice voice, would listen again, A+

Explaining to me that I don't really think she's a good speaker, I'm responding to something other than what I think I'm responding to, that's not the same thing.

clemenza, if you look, I specifically said I was guessing at what you were responding to. saying I was explaining what you were responding to is simply to misread what I wrote.

Okay...but then you came back for a second go at it. Wouldn't it just be easier to accept that I like her voice because I like her voice?

She'd have done much better in the primaries if she were.

I'd be inclined to say the only moment she got anywhere during the primaries was her flare-up with Biden over busing, and that that was not just what she was saying but how effectively she said it.

If all anyone can extract from what I wrote about the many elements comprising the art of oratory is that it is means someone "has a nice voice" or "doesn't have a nice voice" then I give up. Think whatever you all want to think. I can't penetrate the carapace.

the only moment she got anywhere during the primaries was her flare-up with Biden over busing, and that that was not just what she was saying but how effectively she said it.

Right. I agree. I'll say that twice. I agree.

And what does it tell you when the "only moment she got anywhere" was a "flare up", and not the result of a sustained ability to connect deeply with her audience? If it were simply misogyny or racism that was operating to make her not connect like that consistently, then that moment would not have happened, because she didn't cease to be a woman of color in that moment.

I would say it didn't repeat, because she didn't know how to make it repeatable. Few politicians do. The extraordinary political speakers, like MLK Jr. or Obama, don't happen by accident. It is a craft and they understand it on a deep level.

But I've said all I intend to say on the subject. More than once.

misogyny or racism

Not sure where that came from--nothing I even hinted at.

I don't think she did well because a) her prosecutorial background didn't go over particularly well, b) (connected) she got nowhere with the large progressive wing of the party, and c) the rest of the party seemed to settle on--I'm not agreeing with this, no idea, no interest in arguing the point--Biden as the safest pick. Whatever. But I just don't see that her not winning had anything to do with shortcomings as a speaker.

Former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. told a group of black supporters on Thursday night that most Americans are good people who think the nation can be improved, but also declared that “there are probably anywhere from 10 to 15 percent of the people out there that are just not very good people.”

you can quibble with the numbers (it's more like 30%, at least) but this is kind of an astonishing thing to share with people, for a presidential candidate. not saying it's good or bad, just a marker of where we are, that a candidate can say this and it's true and no longer a big deal to acknowledge. that was not true even a year or so ago.