Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

a deep distrust of official narratives

This is the key one for me. The closer you get to the center the more this distrust dissipates.

RussiaGate interesting because it designed for a crowd that don't usually do distrust, and they were really into it (same in a way with Remain)

as illustrated xp

https://www.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/2019/10/fish_hook_theory.jpg

All the centrist crowd turned into Colombo over Russiagate and Roy Keane over Brexit, you love to see it

Graham Souness and Gary Lineker - the very same person.

and that very same person? graham linehan

i would say, yes, some qualities i possess that are also found in the far right are a deep distrust of institutional power and the way it is used, profound fear/anxiety, and a certain feeling of persecution. i struggle sometimes with how similar my thought processes can be to the thought processes of the paranoid right, particularly since i do also have ongoing problems with serious mental illness. the thing that bothers me most is this recurrent feeling i have that the biggest difference between me and them is that "i'm right" and "they're wrong", which is, uh, not a helpful way for me to think, given that i'm not perfect, i'm not always right, that i really can get it super fucking wrong sometimes.

Linehan now writes for the Mail. A logical destination for a transphobic bigot of course, but he'd probably be a fish nook denier despite being a textbook case.

lol hook

I'm fonder of Anchor Theory

https://external-preview.redd.it/wiVJnY58krKoycsKMQVR4zBMb5HqQwG45lvRbODrj3E.jpg?auto=webp&s=de98ccb9724df400b93afcf86920851326fb9ff5

I thought the Chapoistes' problem with 'Russiagate' was that it was irrelevant rather than wrong?

shut up Popeye!

The Chad sea and the Virgin Anchor

"White male hegemony" with no reference to class is as useless as "class only" leftism.

I thought the Chapoistes' problem with 'Russiagate' was that it was irrelevant rather than wrong?

A mix - most leftists critical of it think there's been some Russian interference but the conspiracy theory cottage industry around it quickly spiralled way beyond that.

Linehan now writes for the Mail. A logical destination for a transphobic bigot of course, but he'd probably be a fish nook denier despite being a textbook case.

― calzino

i know that was a typo but can we talk about tom nook truthers here

"White male hegemony" with no reference to class is as useless as "class only" leftism.

All these fishhooks, horseshoes whatever may be true in different contexts but I don't think any of them have a fundamental truth to them. That self-congratulary Anchor theory should be thrown overboard immediately however.

by putting leftism on the right and "reactionarism" (ugh) on the left that Anchor diagram is immediately discredited imo

well that's what it's there for xp

A mix - most leftists critical of it think there's been some Russian interference but the conspiracy theory cottage industry around it quickly spiralled way beyond that.

we got into this yesterday on the Gr33nwald thread

The horseshoe theory often used to discredit leftist ideas by magic - that idea is x inches toward the left therefore it's also x inches toward the right, blah blah

There is however a set of stock images and cliches that are cool sounding (e.g. you get to fight the GOVERNMENT!, Everything you thought before is WRONG!) which everyone feels tempted to use I think?

horseshoe theory is popular imo bc nutty ppl are attracted to fringe political movements so at the extremes you'll often find overlapping conspiracy theories and brainworms

duh theory: 2 things can have similarities but still be drastically different in many other aspects

When group a defines itself in staunch opposition to group b (and the obverse), it's only natural to derive amusement from what they have in common. That being said, statements such as 'fa and antifa are two sides of the same coin' almost always betray unspoken alt-right sympathies.

the amusement in seeing what they have in common is often based on (deliberate or engineered) misunderstanding or outright lies, is the thing.

obviously wrong to apply horseshoe to everything, but you do see a lot of crossover in things like antivax movement, conspiracy theories (jet fuel can't melt steel beams etc)

The “distrusts official narratives” comparison doesn’t actually work. The right and far right do absolutely believe the official (meta-)narrative of American greatness and exceptionalism. They just think there’s a fallen government undermining its true nature.

We're not just taking about the US, though.

Where aren’t you going to encounter that nationalist narrative on the right/far-right?

Everywhere, except it's not always 100% 'official' and, in most cases, nowhere near as histrionically exceptionalist as your country's version.

Sorry, I meant 'nowhere'.

Right, so if you shift the semantics slightly... it holds. This is a fundamental difference between left and right and where horseshoe theory (even watered down to ‘both suspicious of narratives’) fails.

As far as anti-vaxxers, aside from the low income areas where the idea dwells, that’s the domain of rich white liberals not ‘the left’ AFAICT. Granola Karens.

I completely agree, I was just slightly peeved by your assumption that we'd been talking about the US all along.

xp

The “distrusts official narratives” comparison doesn’t actually work.

Covid?

Granola Karens are JULIES.

Nhex: https://xkcd.com/966/

Granola Karens are JULIES.

― santa clause four (suzy)

not gwyneths?

We're not just taking about the US, though.

Makes a change.

The “distrusts official narratives” comparison doesn’t actually work. The right and far right do absolutely believe the official (meta-)narrative of American greatness and exceptionalism. They just think there’s a fallen government undermining its true nature.√The “distrusts official narratives” comparison doesn’t actually work. The right and far right do absolutely believe the official (meta-)narrative of American greatness and exceptionalism. They just think there’s a fallen government undermining its true nature.

This doesn't really matter though because belief in a meta-narrative of exceptionalism won't help you navigate the media and govt narratives of what you view as a fallen government. So the far right is still faced with the same challenges the left is - no official version of events to glom on to, and as a result, a much stronger tendency towards infighting than you'd find in the centre.

As I said earlier, this is not a moral or ideological equivalence - it's about the challenges any group will face if it doesn't suscribe to the official narrative.

few xs back- we desperately need more of a (re)decoupling of intersectional opposition to capitalism/patriarchy/white supremacy on the one hand, from this anti-radical liberal diversity/inclusion shit and progressivist whig mythology on the other, no necessary reason why they should be linked except to hold former back

actually tho how true is the notion of a single official narrative at all these days, if it ever was? except occasionally in most broad or limited terms it’s not like there’s a single bourgeois line accepted by centrists & rejected by left & right, it’s way more of a mess

i really do have a hard time untangling the crazy shit people on the right say from my own history of delusions and mental illness

my personal experience has been that when i feel like i'm not being acknowledged or listened to i do tend to escalate, to say wilder and crazier shit to get somebody, anybody, to acknowledge me

this tendency is deeply counterproductive, since the responses i get understandably tend to be pretty negative and reinforces my mistaken belief that "everybody hates me"

the way i deal with it involves a lot of inner work - if i start shouting and screaming about something arguing doesn't work - challenging the delusion makes whatever part of me is holding on to it hold on to it tighter, and also delusions aren't rational in the first place doesn't. rejecting the delusion entirely doesn't work either, because that brings on the escalation response, sometimes to the point where the threat of self-harm comes into play and i can't ignore it anymore. what i wind up having to do that does work a lot of the time is acknowledging what that part of me is saying, not agreeing, not arguing, and this will often bring on a de-escalation response from that part of me that's delusional.

the issue is that this isn't anything i can recommend when dealing with another person. if someone tries to hurt me, either with violence or with words (george carlin was wrong), i have to protect myself.

i do so, so much work figuring out when to talk to somebody and when to walk away for my own safety and it is exhausting and i never fucking know if i've gotten it right. but it's the best way i've found to go about it.

actually tho how true is the notion of a single official narrative at all these days, if it ever was? except occasionally in most broad or limited terms it’s not like there’s a single bourgeois line accepted by centrists & rejected by left & right, it’s way more of a mess

― What's (Left)

i think there is a line that separates them, one of process, not policy. from what i can tell centrists are people who view compromise as the only way to get anything done, who view our systems, flawed as they are, as essential, and they are willing to do anything, to hurt anyone, to protect those systems.

yeah that makes sense. I think there are elements of this on parts of left & right too (how partial critiques of power often are, combined w uncritical support for other parts- usually in different ways ofc) but what we call the centre is literally defined by it

I feel there's also a significant focus on character for centrists. The system is broadly ok and when its not its because a bad person got behind the wheel. Once we're able to get rid of that bad person everything will be ok again.

Its almost like an inverse cult, the individual isn't the guy coming into the fix the broken system. The individual is the one that has broken the system

idk, i feel like i'm _more_ focused on character than i was as a centrist. to, uh, circumlocute the current fracas a bit, i clearly remember excusing a lot of bill clinton's behavior on the basis that it had no bearing on governance, everybody does it, etc., etc. i'm not so willing to overlook such behavior now. couple that with the unwillingness to break with or acknowledge flaws in any of Our Democratic Norms and I tend to read the "it would be fine if it wasn't for this Bad Actor" as the sort of excuse-making behavior displayed by most people when confronted with stupid facts or inconvenient truths.

It's complex, as we've seen from the overlooking of Biden's character, but I'd say its more about the negative characteristics of the person deemed 'bad' rather than any particular positive/negative characteristics of the replacement. The reason things are bad is due to individuals, that should be replaced, because if its not individuals its something deeper - and there is not such thing as a centrist who thinks the underlying system needs more than tweaks (otherwise they wouldn't be a centrist)

The main desire of the centrist is for peace and quiet, though now they have had a taste of that Russiagate and Brexit good stuff who can say if they'll be able to go back to normal life once a generic suit is in charge again

I feel there's also a significant focus on character for centrists. The system is broadly ok and when its not its because a bad person got behind the wheel. Once we're able to get rid of that bad person everything will be ok again.

maybe true but can i suggest another spin that might also be true for centrists (or at least feels true for this sometimes called centrist)? the system is not an independent construct but rather emerges from the actions of individuals in concert. it is the way it is because the people who participate in it are the way they are. therefore if you want to change the system you need to elevate the consciousness of the people. changing the system (form of economy, form of government, etc) without changing the people gives you the same results in a new wrapper - or sometimes even much worse results despite the best of intentions in revolution!

Woo, dig it

Yes, its not to say there is some correct way of looking at the world. There are different lenses, and sometimes different ones are appropriate, or work for different individuals. There's nothing wrong with being centrist (or left, or right, or some of these things in some contexts and others in other contexts). All views give us some of the picture

I generally don't like talking in generalities as you run into trouble much quicker (one of the reasons I like this particular thread is that its focused on specific situations, up until recently at least). Any generality is full of holes, so I'm not positing this as a hard and fast rule

A generality is of course where the brainworm makes it nest (out of the finest 5G), and hatches its eggs

Trump continues to change the people in order to change the system and we're all incredibly lucky he's been only able to do so for a relatively small number of positions that are powerful on paper but relative figureheads compared to the bureaucracies they "command." Now we just have to ensure he doesn't get to nominate anybody else for the SCOTUS ever again.