Mostly Apolitical Thread for Discussing/Venting our Rational/Irrational COVID-19 Fears and Experiences in 2020

oooh i get it! the rat symbolizes INFECTION

https://sites.google.com/site/pasletempsdelirefr/_/rsrc/1414267566840/auteur/albert-camus/la-peste/La%20peste.jpg

which in English is of course

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Plague-by-Albert-Camus.jpg

I had that exact French edition at one point.

yeah, you don't have to wipe your groceries

and a month ago, you didn't have to wear a mask unless you were sick...

I can tell my acid reflux has been acting up (I generally don't medicate it, bcz with all the other pills I have to stop pissing at some point every morning).

Then last night I spat up a trivial amount of... blood. Not comforting. I don't feel like going to a doctor for that in the middle of all this, so I just skipped coffee today and feel better. So much for the beer a friend brought me last night. Not sure what to do about all the frozen Indian and Mexican food I have either...

(which is the reason for my tender throat and increased reflux)

ugh when my reflux wakes me up it's the worst, seeing blood come up sounds awful. Hope you can get the Mexican and Indian swapped out for some white people food. :\

or just drink a quart of water with dinner

I think the mask and the groceries might not be parallel, though. With the mask, it's primarily (based on what Fauci says, and what I've read) so you, if asymptomatic, don't infect others; with the groceries, it's the risk of you getting infected yourself.

But the point that information keeps changing is valid.

Yeah, the standard or DIY mask is intended not necessarily to keep you safe (they're better than nothing, but that's what the serious N95 masks are for), it's to make it less likely to transfer it to someone else if you are asymptomatic. Of course, if you are asymptomatic that means you are not coughing and sneezing all over the place, which is why a modest mask might help you keep it to yourself. In that sense I'm not sure the information has really changed much. What's remained consistent is washing your hands, not touching your face, keeping away from others, especially those with symptoms. And if you are experiencing symptoms, obviously you should stay away from others entirely, mask or not.

I wipe my groceries because it's ten minutes out of another day of sitting around the house and I figure removing a tiny risk is better than not removing it for p much zero cost.

I was just disturbed yesterday because even though I was wearing a mask (a painter’s mask because that is what I have) I could feel the air coming in around the sides when I breathed in, and several people not wearing masks stood right next to me in the trader joe’s aisles, it felt like we were breathing the same air. I know the risk is low but I don’t understand why people aren’t being more careful

It is a herd mentality thing. The more people who begin to wear masks in public, the more other people will feel that they, too, should wear a mask in public. You can be a thought leader!

The big problem with masks like painter’s masks and n95 ones is fit. They only work if you have the right size and know how to fit them properly. If you work in an industry that requires them you have to go through fit testing at least once a year to check your face hasn’t changed shape and you still know how to use them effectively.

double sided tape too.

also don’t understand why masks aren’t more readily available at this point, it’s been a couple of months that people have been searching for them,

They’re shy

xpost food safety: https://www.seriouseats.com/2020/03/food-safety-and-coronavirus-a-comprehensive-guide.html

We used N95s yesterday to go shopping—C uses them for work and had 2 left. It may be futile but today I doused them with denatured alcohol & air dried them bc they’re the last ones we have. Also was able to bend the nose piece to fit well enough that I could feel the mask suctioning when I inhaled. It was weird to wear in public but prob weirder for ppl looking at us tbh. Lots of dudes in the store with no masks or gloves whatsoever.

that seems normal, what’s weird to me is people not wearing masks or any kind of mouth coverings, it’s selfish and is putting other people at risk

if most people wear masks in a supermarket the risks of contamination shrink because (a) if you wear a mask you can't give it to X (b) if X wears a mask he can't give it to you. I feel a bit better about even supermarkets these days because of the regulation of how many can enter and the mask requirement. I'd have to rub an orange on my lips seconds after Customer X coughed without a mask to be at high risk.

not that i'm defending them per se, but the guidance on masks in the US was terribly wishy-washy. even in the 'rona threads we talked about how pointless it was, because that was the conventional wisdom being shared at the time. some of it was probably to protect the supply of surgical masks from being depleted, but with Americans, trying to get them to do something that the experts say to do is getting harder than harder as it is. getting them to do it after you originally emphatically told them not to is even more difficult - especially since the supply seems really shitty, though makeshift is truly the way to go.

I'm wearing mine when I go out, but I'm not entirely surprised some are slow to adapt. some of them are the assholes who won't wear em anyway, others are people not keeping up as well with the news, others not sure what kind they should wear.

really would have helped if the gov't agencies said something like "wearing masks may prevent you from transmitting, so we encourage wearing them, but DO NOT BUY SURGICAL MASKS, use bandanas/balaclavas/wrap t-shirts/sew cloths together" rather than having the surgeon general say "stop wearing masks, there is no benefit!".

Amazon is banning the sale of most medical masks now for anybody but medical professionals. big-box online sites could have followed suit.

idk...

xpost

kills me that we coulda slowed this thing even earlier if we adopted mask wearing just on a trial basis in like Feb or March.

it wouldn't have stopped it, but coulda flattened it sooner. the excuse I keep hearing was "the studies were inconclusive" but if that's the case, why make a definitive statement like "they aren't going to help you" if this is clearly not known for sure.

Has there been any evidence at all that wearing non-professional masks *does* help? My understanding is no, just that it's potentially better than nothing. Which is to say, inconclusive *at best.* (With the obvious exception of those on the front lines working for prolonged periods of time in close proximity to those exhibiting symptoms, and even then only when wearing certified gear with instructions and training on care and wear and disposal.)

what i read is that it does help block transmission a little bit. less than surgical masks, but slightly better than nothing.

other countries reportedly adopted masks earlier with better results. but will it keep you from getting it? nah

I’ve now lost the link but I did read a paper looking at the effectiveness of different materials for home made masks. The best was a thick tea towel material, followed by cotton jersey. A single layer was only 25% as effective as a surgical mask but vastly less risky than no mask at all. Multiple layers improve the effectiveness.

Study conducted on a different virus.

The whole thing is a game of probabilities, the more we all lower the probability of picking it up or passing it on the better off we all are. Even marginal gains are worth it.

We’ve been sewing masks with teatowl and cotton t-shirt fabric, hoping that it is better than nothing.

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/

https://smartairfilters.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Mask-Materials-Effectiveness-1-Micron-EN-1024x744.jpg

turns out the best thing to make a diy mask out of is a proper surgical mask.

other countries reportedly adopted masks earlier with better results. but will it keep you from getting it? nah

Exactly, it's not really expected to burn do it anyway.

None of us will be able to avoid exposure in the long term to a disease with no vaccine or cure. This is about getting sick 10 at a time instead of 100 in the hope that there's a bed and an incubator and trained nurses if you need them.

Every little measure through distancing, cleaning, package handling and wearing terrible home made masks helps to flatten the curve.

Every little measure through distancing, cleaning, package handling and wearing terrible home made masks helps to flatten the curve.

Those aren't evenly weighted, though - distancing is far more important than the others. Masks - even if they're constructed to surgical standard, which they mostly won't be, even if they're correctly applied, which they mostly won't be - are there for occasions when distancing isn't possible. And misplaced faith in them may cause people to act dangerously.

For example (sorry Dan)

and several people not wearing masks stood right next to me in the trader joe’s aisles, it felt like we were breathing the same air.

Yeah - that wasn't safe.

other countries reportedly adopted masks earlier with better results.

I don't know there's a counterfactual here - has any country mandated masks buy not distancing?

Just been out to Morrisons, to pick up stuff I didn't get yesterday and to ensure I won't need to go anywhere near shops for a while yet. On making a tally of the people queueing on the pavement outside the shop, I'd say maybe 1 in 8 but possibly as few as 1 in 10 people are wearing masks or face coverings - and this is in London, the UK's home of coronavirus, and in the most densely populated borough in London (ergo the UK) to boot. Worse still is how few Morrisons staff are wearing masks or gloves - including those who are handling food. I saw one of their butchers wandering around, no mask no gloves... not that I ever buy butcher meat from Morrisons!

... needless to say(?) distancing isn't possible.

The whole thing is a game of probabilities, the more we all lower the probability of picking it up or passing it on the better off we all are. Even marginal gains are worth it.

otm

They weren't supposed to be weighted but if it helps, sure, weigh them.

If you think one reduces your exposure 50% and another 1% then by all means settle for 50 instead of 51.

xp

masks help distancing to occur by sending a powerful visual reminder

I can quote Dan's post again if you'd like?

not everyone will heed it, but some will. as we’re engaged in a giant game of nudging the probabilities, that seems worthwhile to me. if your point is that actually masks nudge the probabilities the wrong way, that it leads to a false sense of security and therefore more risky behavior, that people don’t know how to dispose of or wash them or handle them properly, i understand - but is there any actual evidence to back up this contention andrew?

oooh oooh can we do bike helmets next!

They're good for hitting people with

Bike locks, too.

The problem is that there isn't a lot of evidence of the effectiveness or lack thereof of masks, period, and even anecdotally there's been no control. That is, yeah, every group told to wear masks has also been social distancing, if not locked down. Similarly, evidence masks can lead to risky behavior is anecdotal too, I presume, but given that health care professionals (among others) are given training and strict rules for the care, wear and disposal of masks, one could assume that the lack of same for the layman could be problematic. Or as one of the many things I came across while looking for an answer put it:

There are several possible reasons why masks don't offer significant protection. First, masks may not do much without eye protection. We know from animal and laboratory experiments that influenza or other coronaviruses can enter the eyes and travel to the nose and into the respiratory system. While standard and special masks provide incomplete protection, special masks combined with goggles appear to provide complete protection in laboratory experiments. However, there are no studies in real-world situations measuring the results of combined mask and eyewear.

The apparent minimal impact of wearing masks might also be because people didn't use them properly. For example, one study found less than half of the participants wore them "most of the time". People may also wear masks inappropriately, or touch a contaminated part of the mask when removing it and transfer the virus to their hand, then their eyes and thus to the nose. Masks may also provide a false sense of security, meaning wearers might do riskier things such as going into crowded spaces and places.

This piece seemed a pretty good summary of where things (inconsistently) stand: https://www.livescience.com/are-face-masks-effective-reducing-coronavirus-spread.html

Summed up:

"Putting a face mask on does not mean that you stop the other practices," said May Chu, a clinical professor in epidemiology at the Colorado School of Public Health on the Anschutz Medical Campus who was not involved in either new study. "It does not mean you get closer to people, it does not mean you don't have to wash your hands as often and you can touch your face. All of that still is in place, this is just an add-on."

Josh could you drop your skeptic act just a little bit? you've been arguing against all of these measures since the thread blew up and it's getting really tiresome.

Not that I'm accusing you of this JiC, but "it doesn't reduce transmission to zero, ergo it's useless" is the same logic gun fetishists use to argue against banning guns

yeah I don't really get Josh's persistence on this point, several weeks later. Masks are good and this discussion is exhausting.

Just ask yourself: when I have a cold, am I more or less likely to spread it by covering my mouth when I cough?

It's not rocket science

Plus when you walk into the bank ppl just give u money

it's great for crime in general

idk why ANYONE who isn't simply looking for an argument would actively argue against mask- wearing

otm x6

I think the marginal impact of wearing a mask at the grocery store when I’m there is nearly zero but I’ll do it anyway bc I’m a very compliant person