2020 Democratic presidential primary thread, pt 3: life is very long

xxxp It's not a purity test. It's recognizing the reality that so long as health care is managed to profit insurance companies and big pharma people are going to suffer. "Universal" doesn't address that.

"But ffs, he isn't 'intimating' that the issues are tied to the healthcare system, he is pointing out the fact that countries with great healthcare systems could still fuck this up."

You should work for Uncle Joe, Fred.

As long as it can hurt Biden, every lie is okay, and if anyone points out it's not true, it's melt this and 'captain-save-a-Joe' that.

I'm hardly a staunch defender of Fred but this is so otm it's ridiculous. I feel bad for the posters who said they came to ILX as a better source of news than actual journalists, esp when there's this kind of garbage being thrown around.

I am not excited about Biden and never have been, I've enumerated his faults repeatedly. Pushing back against people posting totally irresponsible bullshit is about THE BULLSHIT, not an endorsement of Biden.

maybe because we’re in the middle of a fucking global health crisis and we don’t have time for a path!!!! just a thought!!!!

Bodies are piling up but my "regression analysis" tells me it's a 👎 for M4A

lol yeah p much...

we've got the $$$ and inclination for virtually anything, EXCEPT THIS

absolute insanity.

The government fucking up their response to the pandemic isn’t dependent on universal or for-profit health care. People being bankrupted by treatment and states being forced to outbid each other in order to treat the outbreak is a function of for-profit health care.

^

why that Neera Tanden tweet is disingenuous horeshit

anyway, tying healthcare to employment is an incredibly shitty idea and democratic politicians who stand by it should be hounded and treated with suspicion.

or nominated!

yeah there are a million reasons some countries could get hit harder than others that have nothing to do with the fact that they have public health care, other than that they'd doubtless be even worse off without it

I don’t understand why or how the particular path to universal healthcare became such a fucking purity test

We know you don't! But it's been covered several times over the course of these threads that the people bemoaning purity tests and childishness and yada yada yada are, by and large, quite comfortable as-is. If you have good coverage, if you're years or decades removed from making $9 an hour, the response from people for whom progress on those fronts represents real improvements in the material conditions of their lives is confusing.

"Path to universal healthcare" means less than zero - there's never been an indication that Biden cares about it, nor an indication that it would actually serve the needs of people (rather than represent another subsidy for insurance and pharmacy CEOs) or control healthcare costs.

xxxp It's not a purity test. It's recognizing the reality that so long as health care is managed to profit insurance companies and big pharma people are going to suffer. "Universal" doesn't address that.

exactly. I've said this many times regarding Obamacare - yeah it's shitty, but that's because there's no good way to do healthcare when our country's operating principle is making as much money as possible and the principles of supply and demand dictate that getting cancer sets you back a cool quarter million.

he people bemoaning purity tests and childishness and yada yada yada are, by and large, quite comfortable as-is

I love it when the opposing side just gives up entirely and results to ad hominem attacks (the truth of which cannot be verified)

bro I grew out of gotcha-ing people from my logical fallacy cheat sheet ten years ago

unless milo keeps a spreadsheet detailing every ILX posters' jobs, income levels, family situation, rent/mortgage, health situation etc. I suppose its possible. I'd bet money it was riddled with self-serving errors though.

lol I'm sure the debate judges will deduct points

a fun fact about high school policy debate is a popular tactic these days is for the neg side to attack the entire premises of policy debate and, indeed, society itself

I wonder what % of people failing to recognize the urgency of this problem have health care that doesn't require the same urgency

probably there is zero correlation!

opposition is always what you pick if you win the coin toss, it's true xp

I never did debate but it sounds insane

I wish we could quarantine you guys in your own thread where you could shout your articles of faith at each other

xps

FLAG ON THE FIELD AD HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC FALLACY

15 yards, repeat the post

at least we have articles, you just have an unwavering obeisance to the California congressional delegation xp

do we have a high school/college debate veterans thread that doesn't open with weird anti-serbian racism, I have some stories

It's true I am generally thankful for how California and its elected officials have handled this crisis so far, although there have been failings and missteps.

xps

I wish we could quarantine you guys in your own thread where you could shout your articles of faith at each other

― Οὖτις, 3. april 2020 18:45 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Tbf I did post in the Berner thread at times, so they didn't have that for themselves. I'm very sorry, I had no idea the consequences would be so dire.

Fred you are the only thing keeping this messageboard in line with your good posts, please post more often in more threads, if you don't we all might have wrong opinions unchecked

no ma'am, that's not a bankrupting expense you have there for your insulin, it's an "article of faith"

"there's no good way to do healthcare when our country's operating principle is making as much money as possible"

I agree and also think the love of money is the root of all evil but

when more than 10% of USAians work in the health care sector & when almost 20% (and rising!) of GDP is spent on health care, changes to this operating principle are a big fucking deal. I agree that this crisis is the time to go for it (I voted for Sanders this time) but it would be good to be upfront about how many people are going to take a hit from M4A, even if your (my) ultimate view thinks the good brought from this outweighs the damage. It's something like class warfare.

lol Fred finally copping to his pro-Biden stance in making equivalence btw this and Bernie thread

this is a thread for Joe Biden boosters I guess?

some would say that as the presumptive nominee (<sic>27 territories have yet to cast primary votes</sic>) we should all be Biden boosters!

If you have good coverage, if you're years or decades removed from making $9 an hour, the response from people for whom progress on those fronts represents real improvements in the material conditions of their lives

^^like, this is more or less me. well, except for the "good coverage" part; i'm self-employed, generally healthy and have opted for a "bronze" plan (or the "stripped copper wire plan", h/t Trillbillies Worker Party).

but i am extremely comfortable, and haven't had to really worry about money or paying for things in well over a decade. but i also know exactly how much luck has played a role in my situation, and how badly it sucked back when i was working various service industry jobs, sometimes simultaneously. and with just a hit or two of bad luck how quickly my fortunes could be reversed.

I wish we could quarantine you guys in your own thread where you could shout your articles of faith at each other

― Οὖτις, 3. april 2020 18:45 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Tbf I did post in the Berner thread at times, so they didn't have that for themselves. I'm very sorry, I had no idea the consequences would be so dire.

― Frederik B, Friday, April 3, 2020 9:49 AM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

so I just went to the Bernie thread and searched "Frederik B"

160 matches

Ouch...

some would say that as the presumptive nominee (<sic>27 territories have yet to cast primary votes</sic>) we should all be Biden boosters!

10% of USAians work in the health care sector

clearly there would be a pretty massive shift, but i dont know that the work wouldn't still be there. unless you work in the private health insurance industry (and hopefully marketing etc for big pharma), in which case a uni overhaul would absolutely need to address these concerns.

or less charitably, one could take a page from the lib consultant class and tell these folks to just lEaRn tO CoDe lol

"Vampires are draining 20% of your blood each night, if we stop them from doing that how are they going to get blood?"

There would have to be a lot of re-training and shifting of resources but IIRC everyone advocating for M4A/an NHS/etc. recognizes and accounts for that need.

so I just went to the Bernie thread and searched "Frederik B"

160 matches

I just searched "melt " on this thread and

if anyone points out it's not true, it's melt this and 'captain-save-a-Joe' that.

this claim by Fred is the only use of it

had a tuna melt this week, it was good, let's have more melts

ew

Yes I’m White And I Vote!!

for tuna melts

ay, public option is better than current but clearly inferior as a matter of fairness and efficiency by all that i can suss. but if the political barrier is too fucking high, which maybe it is, i'd settle on public option reluctantly.

but the center needs to accept that the us system is soooo difficult to move at all that systemic progressive changes are almost impossible. you need either a depression or cold war style prosperity to make them real. with half a depression, you get...obamacare.

for that reason dems need to remember that what we're building, if we can build it-- we may be stuck with for a long time. the reality is all employer dependent care systems ultimately should (i say must) be shucked-the-fuck-out of healthcare. it hurts our people. it limits our freedom. it actually sucks the vitality out of our economy. it was a series of half-steps as implemented afaict and it must go eventually. we should be willing to fight for this even now imo. right now.

i mean, i'll vote for either candidate. as to m4a level healthcare payment, there may come a time to shut up and toe the line. after the nomination is official maybe? regardless, the ceasefire should be temporary at best because the cause is worthwhile.

If you can’t convince the majority of the electorate that switching to M4A is to their benefit, then all the “fighting” in the world isn’t going to do much.

Currently it’s not even possible to win the primary on this issue. Cue a post blaming it on big donors and the DNC.

just proves that not enough people have said "medicare for all" on television enough times yet

If we end up with Medicare For All, the most likely end scenario given where we are starting from is that baseline Medicare coverage will suck ass and people who can afford it will end up purchasing Medicare Advantage plans anyway.

Employer-based healthcare is a gigantic crock of shit so I'd see that as something of an improvement.

I make enough money where I shouldn't have any financial concerns but an acquisition caused a medical benefit change where the one monthly prescription I take went from $25/month to $1800/month. I now have a new job primarily so I can afford to stay on medication.

(On a related note, self-insuring is an even bigger crock of shit)