Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

This is sobering, the whole thread:

Even though my dad's a white southerner he feels the same way about Bernie: he's not a Democrat. And in my dad's mind if you're not a Democrat you're not standing in solidarity with the team that's trying to fight the fascists. You're doing some quixotic thing over here instead. That's why he's a staunch AFL-CIO guy too despite all of their historical problems partic with women and people of color. This time he voted for Bernie - but he had to be dragged kicking and screaming by my sister and the local DSA chapter (of which he's a member). And in his mind it was always just for the primary. Just so on the off-chance Bernie got the nom he could say 'I voted for him'. Not saying this is the right way to think but it's about more than just blind tribalism: it's tribalism as the most practical way of organizing opposition and anybody who doesn't want to play, or has historically not played ball, is suspect.

Man, when you have to drag a registered DSA member union guy to the polls to vote for Sanders ...

That Michael Harriot thing is great. It echoes a lot (ugh, my own cynicism and feelings that he would quickly throw under the bus stuff I deeply care about to get get his white whale). I think the switch flipped when he decided to run again and not put his efforts backing another candidate (it didn't have to be Warren).

This is sobering, the whole thread:

this is exactly what I was getting at in that flamewar the other day with milo and silby - that you can't separate black Southern Dem voters from the Dem "establishment", and when someone (ie Bernie) attacks the "establishment" they feel it's an attack on them. And in some ways they are right, you take away the structure that supports someone like Clyburn, however corrupt you may think it is, and their power diminishes. And arguing that Bernie's way will deliver for those voters through a different mechanism/structure sounds suspect to them (and to me too, frankly)

If you can imagine a person, they exist. People are idiosyncratic. xxp

(Michael Harriot and the Root are hardly uninterested or representative parties.)

I think the switch flipped when he decided to run again and not put his efforts backing another candidate (it didn't have to be Warren).

If the thread is right, and its starting to look like it might be - who would be the person that could have prevailed, who shoul Bernie have dropped out and backed?

I am not this fanfic speculator here that wants to just increase anxiety for no reason. All I know is that him running again was going to invariably draw in all the same bad blood of 2016, he's older, all of us have gotten older, more cynical. He has to also change with the times.

I don't think he should have run again. I wish Biden hadn't run, too.

totally. fucking groundhog day for the rest of my life.

And arguing that Bernie's way will deliver for those voters through a different mechanism/structure sounds suspect to them (and to me too, frankly)

This isn't really an honest question, because they'll "deliver" the same way black voters do for Democrats election after election.
It is rather insulting to a hypothetical black voter to suggest that they'll stay home in November for a guy that all evidence points to the primary opposition being "he's not electable" against Donald Trump.

If you wanted to argue that black voters only turnout in 2016 numbers, which hurt Clinton - how are the Latinx and Asian voters that Bernie is winning going to turn out for non-Bernie in November? It's been a recurring evasion by some to pretend that voters of color only means black voters. That's not true in 2020 (nor has it ever been true) - and those are two groups of people of color with more room for growth in Democratic voter share.

There's been a lot of posts and post-mortems on this over the last few days so its understandable not to want to go into that and bring it to a close, it is what it is I guess

You're doing some quixotic thing over here instead.

I also think this is an underappreciated take of a lot of older voters in general. My dad doesn't have much use for Bernie, and it's not because he's not a Democrat -- my dad voted for Barry Commoner in 1980, he was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War, he's never had a great love for political establishments. But he also spent a lot of time with/around '60s radicals and got turned off by lots of them as endless brayers about revolution who didn't get things done. I think he sees a lot of them in Bernie and vice versa.

just going by nothing but my own experience, older asians (if they were immigrants) are pretty conservative. Their children could be progressive but a lot are pretty affluent at this point and kind of could go either way. I know enough that actually did vote for Trump because $$$.

but I kind of don't think anyone really pays attention to asians in voting anyway.

my latino family, immigrants from latin america, are pretty conservative too, mostly voters for the current president even. my parents aren't, but they're the exceptions. I know lots of first-gen latino families like this.

This isn't really an honest question, because they'll "deliver" the same way black voters do for Democrats election after election.

no idea what yr referring to here, I think you misread what I was getting at - which is that black voters trust the existing power structures/institutions they've built more than whatever Bernie would replace it with

xpost My mom is taiwanese and I had to hang out in all the chinese restaurants she worked and with a lot of similar situation families. I am pretty sure she is taiwanese at least. I've met her multiple times and did an inspection of the house she grew up in. I don't mind the spirit of capitalism like a lot of people here. In reality, having money is basically the one thing you're taught that for sure will protect you if you aren't a white man.

Asian-American and Latinx voters are both reliably Democratic (Asian-American actually more Democratic over a longer period of time) at 65+%.

Anyway I think it's super cool that in their swerving away from the Not A Democrat, folks are instead supporting a corrupt brain-damaged blowhard who doesn't even *pretend* he's going to strive for a better society and is in all likelihood going to get his fucking ass handed to him in November anyway.

that's the spirit

(tbc it's the Sanders crew's job to show that this is the case. I just don't see it happening.)

somewhat of a tangent, but the "give _____ supporters time to make their decision!" discourse is starting to bother me. it's not that I don't understand and sympathize with their point, but unfortunately there is another primary on tuesday, so one way or another, a decision is going to be made in the next couple of days, which is not much time

It will be the left's fault - Bernie hits him on trade and jobs in the primaries, he's "poisoning the well in the general!!!!" 2016 redux.

I like how you Bernie guys can swerve from "you don't support Bernie because you aren't actually suffering/have less to lose" to telling people who are clearly suffering/have a lot to lose that they are stupid for not supporting Bernie.

Really great coalition building

xps

that... was not really my point?

No coalitions are being built via ILX.

sorry wasn't talking to you Katherine, was more addressed to Simon, milo et al

xps

This is a free space to say "people who are clearly suffering/have a lot to lose" and vote for Biden are voting against their interests, because they are.

They're also voting against a lot of others peoples' interests.

And in my dad's mind if you're not a Democrat you're not standing in solidarity with the team that's trying to fight the fascists. You're doing some quixotic thing over here instead.

This is what I keep trying to get across when I harp on presidential politics being about building the broadest coalition. You can't afford to be exclusionary and still win. So the strategy remains to get Bernie the nomination, but somehow or other the message has to be focused on identifying what you are for and why you're against the other side.

Putting half the Democratic Party on "the other side" is recipe for disaster and the bros need to get a hell of a lot smarter about that. It should be enough to know that if their guy ever sits in the big chair, he will be setting the goals and calling the shots. That's the spoils that go to the victor. The bros can see how good victory would taste, but they seem too damn clueless about the process required to win it.

This is a free space to say "people who are clearly suffering/have a lot to lose" and vote for Biden are voting against their interests, because they are.

historically black people love being told by white guys that they don't know what's best for them, definitely a good angle to take

Half the Democratic Party has been constantly put on the other side and told to Vote Blue No Matter Who Or Else for 40+ years and that gambit never works.

Did your half ever win the nomination before?

Never works for what?

This is a free space to say "people who are clearly suffering/have a lot to lose" and vote for Biden are voting against their interests, because they are.

What do you mean by "free space"? Is someone telling you can't say that or have people been saying "I don't think saying that is a good idea", ie taking in your input and responding to it? Are you looking for people to respond or people to agree?

I like how you Bernie guys can swerve from "you don't support Bernie because you aren't actually suffering/have less to lose"

...an argument I've never made, cool.

I totally get *why* people back Biden, I just think they're wrong to think he's the safer pair of hands.

historically black people love being told by white guys that they don't know what's best for them, definitely a good angle to take

see above: there are no coalitions being built on ILX. Joe Biden's record on matters that affect black Americans is atrocious. How and why people vote is not in my control, but it's actual fact that he's one of the architects of the drug war and mass incarceration, courting segregationists for his ends, the list is pretty long.

This is a free space to say "people who are clearly suffering/have a lot to lose" and vote for Biden are voting against their interests, because they are.

historically black people love being told by white guys that they don't know what's best for them, definitely a good angle to take

― Οὖτις, Friday, March 6, 2020 9:59 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

is this super infuriating to anyone else? white man shakey representing the African American community in the most cynical way possible constantly in these threads

And that's a case that clearly has not been adequately made. self-xxp

Lads any chance you’d be as quick to jump on the people itt handwaving the Obama administration’s millions of deportations or are you just running on spite now?

At this point I feel like this thread should just be a game where I bait Bernouts into listing the sins of Democratic politicians going back further and further until we’re in Reconstruction

Joe Biden sucks ass and is a terrible person and politician. and that added to that he is now a fucking mess and can't string a sentence together? is actually less eloquent than trump at this stage? Jesus Christ.

What do you mean by "free space"?

That "good job building a coalition" means nothing here. 90% of the people ITT have already voted or can't vote, none were going to be swayed anyway, and there aren't enough to matter regardless.

you're all infuriating and you should log off

xxp there’s a lot of cool stuff itt being ignored in favour of bad faith shit like the above, but you know, civility

Joe Biden's record on matters that affect black Americans is atrocious. How and why people vote is not in my control, but it's actual fact that he's one of the architects of the drug war and mass incarceration, courting segregationists for his ends, the list is pretty long.

Oh, I'm sure African-Americans never pay any attention to that sort of stuff. Not woke enough. /sarcasm

all likelihood going to get his fucking ass handed to him in November anyway.

I've never thought he had what it takes to go up against Trump, but idk I mean there's an argument that all those people are actually right, and Biden actually is the strongest candidate? or the best placed to win at least. A lot of people are seeing something and if enough of them do it becomes self-fulfilling

hey dummies if we polled bernie vs biden on ilx biden would get maybe 2-3 votes if even and bernie would get everyone else so chill tf out

"hurr durr but biden is bad" literally everyone here agrees with you it doesn't matter we're a bubble stfu