Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

it was super fucking embarrassing but i suspect anyone who cares about the Pocahontas shit was voting for Trump anyway

It was lousy political instincts and she could have turned it into something much better about the way many white Americans have been sold a connection to Native Americans through family lore as a way to ignore genocide and land theft but it didn't really matter.

best-case scenario, the legislative landscape breaks down like this:
- House (most progressive)
- Biden presidency (kinda in the middle)
- Senate (least progressive - thx to Manchin, Tester, etc.)

xp

To look on the bright side: if Bernie fails, he's at least definitively proved it's possible to be nationally viable on a campaign funded almost entirely by small donations / not beholden to the special interests that act as a major blocker to the kind of large structural change people generally seem to want and agree would be a net good. I hope we can all agree that is A Good Thing.

Ppl often talk about the left as a monolith but I doubt many think of Bernie as "the ideal candidate"; most would vastly prefer someone less old, less shouty, less white, less male. Someone more demographically pleasing who could build up enough of a base to make that same funding model work could very well deliver what he may prove unable to one or two or three cycles down the line, and he'll have laid a lot of very important groundwork and precedent. (AOC's her own person obviously, but it's tough to imagine her political awakening and small-donor backing without Bernie's 2016 campaign.) So as much as a Biden win would bum me and many others the fuck out, I can't see this as a total loss.

ie a repeat of Obama in '08-'09

xp

it's possible to be nationally viable

? he's never won a national campaign

Vindictive Amy Klobuchar Elected Mayor Of South Bend, Indiana https://t.co/UPZKczd4iG pic.twitter.com/GhPIDDasGJ

— The Onion (@TheOnion) March 5, 2020

? he's never won a national campaign

christ, COMPETITIVE. you knew what I meant.

synonyms, how do they work?

at least Shakey's committed to his shtick

I don't think "competitive in a primary" and "nationally viable" mean the same thing...?

I'm also trying to answer to people whose support of Bernie is predicated on the assumption that no other candidate could possibly offer anything even the slightest bit progressive

We're not talking 'no other candidate' though, we're talking about Biden - Iraq twice, brags about actually secretly authoring the PATRIOT Act, Hyde Amendment stan until 2019, bankruptcy bill, drug warrior, mass incarceration. He even opposed Hillarycare in the '90s.

Giving a speech about a $15 minimum wage now doesn't mean terribly much when there's nothing in your five decade political history to indicate you actually care about or will fight for progressive causes. Particularly when you round that speech out with your desire to work with Republicans.

like, was Jesse Jackson "nationally viable"? idk

xpost
good post Simon

I had a realization speaking with a female friend, she just didn't LIKE Bernie on a fundamental level, like he just reminded her (she said) of older men who talk over her in meetings and dismiss her

I think the same way a lot of people didn't like Hillary, they both rub certain ppl the wrong way

(she was a big Warren fan)

I don't like Biden (at all) but I don't think he's an unprincipled right winger as much as someone who follows the political calculus of his party

Iraq twice, brags about actually secretly authoring the PATRIOT Act, Hyde Amendment stan until 2019, bankruptcy bill, drug warrior, mass incarceration

unfortunately Democratic majorities supported all these things

Bernie has won elections in like 22 different states.

(well ok I don't think a majority supported the Hyde amendment in 2019 - he was behind on that one)

xps

she just didn't LIKE Bernie on a fundamental level, like he just reminded her (she said) of older men who talk over her in meetings and dismiss her

I hear this a lot, I think it's a basic component of why he has the ceiling he does tbh

^^^ this is my wife. She thinks Bernie’ a jerk.

He wasn't just a backbench Representative following orders, he was a senior Senator with a profile big enough to run for President multiple times, instrumental in building the party support for most of those things.

no argument there

what % of those do we think those instinctual Bernie dislikers are latent anti-Semites in the same way Warren haters are latent misogynists? I'll take answers off-air. xps

principled leadership is not his thing. making "deals" that appeal to some mythical center is his thing.

what % of those do we think those instinctual Bernie dislikers are latent anti-Semites in the same way Warren haters are latent misogynists?

oh cool are we calling all the women in my family self-hating jews now?

whoa now only the Left can “do tropes”

just saying both sides can play at that stupid game

(ftr I DON’T think ppl who aren’t enamored w Bernie or think he’s shouts are antisemitic)

I don't think there's a ton of anti-semitism in the Democratic opposition to Bernie tbh

now, in the general election it'd be a different story, because anti-semitism nationally will go through the fucking roof

xpost yeah the summary of feedback on bernie I have seen form my friends that agree with his platform yet still think he's a narcissist that spent his political career beautifying the very white Vermont and forgive me hE mArCHeD with MLk.

Side note science question re the DNA test not showing any Native/indigenous ancestry: Do people understand that you only get HALF of each parent's DNA and you don't know which half? So I could have an elephant in my ancestry but potentially not inherit those genes from one parent or the other, but one of my siblings *could* inherit them, so they could get the result of 10% elephant and I could get 0% but we still both "have" the genetic inheritance in an inexact way.

Or I have I completely misunderstood?

Ime, a lot of the reasons people don’t like Bernie tend to bump up against tone policing, because it’s obviously awful when people get upset and angry and uncivilised about politics. I mean, he does shout, and he is salty, and he is a tough old lad who isn’t nice and well-spoken. I guess it depends how much politics influences your life.

Anyway, the best thing written about Warren and the DNA test

What Warren did is despicable—not just because of how short-sighted and selfish it was, but because it betrays the agreement between tribal governments and the United States government that our people are their own people. In publishing this video, and believing it to be the right thing to do, she simply played the political cards exactly as she and every other white politician have been taught: wherever useful, wherever it is most expedient and pragmatic, borrow from the Native people and communities and governments. Borrow their children, borrow their land, borrow their culture, and, if you think you need to, borrow with no intent of returning what you took.

Elizabeth Warren is nothing new. She is more of the same for us. She will claim that this was the necessary response, that she can’t allow the President to constantly mock her as a liar. But she is the one who decided to cite her Native heritage, long before Trump was on the scene. In other words, she brought this mess on herself unnecessarily.

Yeah, there's something about Bernie's willingness to call bullshit that I appreciate and identify with pretty hardcore, but, yeah, I guess there's a pretty solid reason that I'm not management material and it might roughly the same reason Bernie won't be president.

it would be cool if an elephant was president

I don't think there's a ton of anti-semitism in the Democratic opposition to Bernie tbh

now, in the general election it'd be a different story, because anti-semitism nationally will go through the fucking roof

― Οὖτις, Thursday, March 5, 2020 7:25 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've been really shocked by the amt of venom on twitter for assuming with utter certainty that anyone who objected to yelling or thought Bernie was "yelling" or too forceful or too aggressive was LITERALLY 100% COMING FROM ANTI-SEMITISM and there were no other options.

I always assume that the average voter has no clue he is jewish. It doesn't even cross my mind.

xxpost Taft was secretly elephant

I hear this a lot, I think it's a basic component of why he has the ceiling he does tbh

― Οὖτις, Thursday, March 5, 2020 12:19 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i have also heard this a lot (not as much the shout-y part, but definitely "he's just another old white guy" part) and agree that it's an obstacle (tho most of my warren-backing friends plan to support sanders, because actual politics)

it would be cool if an elephant was president

just ambling around, spraying water on people, shitting on things, occasional trumpeting

oh and motivational speaker is the one I hear about Bernie a lot.

there were no other options.

surely "being part of the establishment" was an option?

anger is an energy

― brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:00 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

but how much energy does C+Ping Twitter's shittiest posts really require?

in orbit, i had never heard that about dna tests. I have never taken one. I have no clue whose elephant this is.

xxpost Taft was secretly elephant

Trump is not-so-secretly elephant

forgive me hE mArCHeD with MLk.

esp considering Biden's recent uh "gaffe" on this subject

Warren's DNA thing was super-dumb and did put a dent in perceptions of her judgment, which was a problem because her judgment was one of her big selling points. But at the same time, I don't think it was that big a deal as far as her campaign or ultimate electability. Certainly no more than, like, not having the right answer about Fidel Castro. Which also I think was dumb but is unlikely to be the make-break thing for Bernie in either the primary or the general. I don't think elections turn on those individual gaffes, it has more to do with people's overall perceptions of the candidate -- which gaffes can help shape, but if people basically like or trust someone, they'll forgive a lot, and if they don't, it doesn't really matter what the candidate says anyway.

On women not liking Bernie, I know a lot of very progressive women who find him completely off-putting for exactly the reasons mentioned above. And of course that goes double or triple for his followers, or what they perceive as his followers. I also know very progressive women who are campaigning their hearts out for him, so it's not universal. But there's a reason he's not going to get some of Warren's supporters, and it's not because they love Biden.

Certainly no more than, like, not having the right answer about Fidel Castro.

did Obama also have the wrong answer

gyac xpost . this was being mocked by black people about how it's a bad defense used because he hasn't done anything specifically for black people in ages.

_ forgive me hE mArCHeD with MLk._

Maybe never mind. I read (quickly) gyac's link about why the ancestry thing was offensive to actual tribal members and I can get it though the nuances will take some time. I only learned about blood quantum maybe a year ago? And the politics behind making tribes define themselves this way and the expectation that it would lead to them dwindling into extinction and having their identity and land stolen by the govt.

I thought the problem w Warren's DNA test was that she took it and they DIDN'T find any "native" ancestry and it made her look not only tone-deaf but also *a liar.* My mistake. Apparently testing showed that she DOES have it so now the whole thing is about the offense to tribal ppl, which I'm going to have to wrap my head around a little bit more.