bojo is king, brexit is on, stuff is fvcked, tomorrow starts here -- new govt new thread new battle

so easy to lose sight of how much politics is just the q of power. when you read the kotkin stalin bio and it's full of all these much less monstrous socialists taking principled stands and quitting in protest at key points, the end result is that at the next key event there are fewer principled ppl around

I had considered tearing up my membership card (I might still if they don’t sort out my ballot!) but have since been talked out of it by someone much lefter than me, on the grounds that left members rage quitting is just what your Progress/Labour First crowd want.

otm, this thread is the eternal struggle of "calmly posting as we always do" against "lol we're all going to die"

Think it's more calmly posting as we always do about how we're going to lol die

Sorry I should say "this is why everyone needs to keep voting Labour (b/c otherwise the Tories will continue foiling everything we try and do)" is the line that will be used by Khan. I didnt vote Labour in 15 and I would never advocate robotically voting for them in all circumstances.

Even if RLB wins there is next to no chance of the manifesto being as radical as 2019 (and clearly not enough people in enough parts of the country thought they could deliver on it, or wanted it delivered on, in any case). 2017 might be a realistic benchmark though.

xps

funny you mention Kotkin - I've currently got audiobook of Waiting For Hitler, (that I read year before last but it is a monumental work that reveals more to me on repeat listens!) on my mp3 player. And finishing V Ullrich's 2nd Hitler volume on the kindle. No wonder my mind is full of murder/genocide/suicide rage at the moment!

the manifesto wasn't radical ofc, repackaging essentially the same ideas as sensible moderate boring lawyer shit is probably overall a good thing

I should be clear that the 2024 manifesto should be something I would happily canvass for in the doorstep. I think a lot of the policy will need to of course be updated, as will the way it's communicated and yes the sense that it's possible but that just depends on where we are at in five years. It could be what is impossible now will have to happen then.

XP yes not radical, it was just painted that way. That's where phrasing as sensible lawyer shit might work to counteract that.

xxp I didn’t realise my dad posted here :|

yeah calz I know you're a fan! I find kotkin's relentless focus on power v illuminating & instructive

"one of the longest chats I had was with an 85+ yo guy in bolton who made it v clear he wasn't going to vote, but then told me his history of industrial disputes and poor treatment from corrupt trade unions in the 70s and his gradual erosion of faith in the unions and by extension labour"

Certainly brings to mind that a revival of democratic socialism just wasn't enough for the crowd that saw it first hand and the younger ones who haven't but perhaps also know it isn't enough.

Soso said of UK democracy: Liberals, Conservatives, Labourites were all the same and all stood for the continuation of exploitation. And hilariously said not long before a genocidal wave of national and internal party terror "there is a dark side to our [one party] system, there is no one to criticise us, even gently. So we have to criticise ourselves, check, not be afraid of our shortcomings, difficulties, and confront them".

You can be otm ironically sometimes

this O_o twitter thread reminded me of both Meadway’s NS column yesterday on decentralising Labour’s economic policy (which i agree with and the absence of which was a bone of contention for me with the 2019 manifesto) and what xyzzz says above about framing and language.

A number of #Inverclyde constituents have highlighted their anger with being told their State Pension is a "benefit". On the back of this, I wrote to @dwp & received the attached reply. pic.twitter.com/OqpZTC6I0y

— Ronnie Cowan MP (@ronniecowan) March 3, 2020

probably lacking a connecting point there which is a message about the benefits of socialism may alienate people more (through accruing quite militant and antagonistic meaning to it) than the government on-the-ground benefits of policy.

iirc the term "national insurance" was a PR fudge dating back to Lloyd George to try and keep old people alive without the taint of socialism anyway. There's a good deal of room to reframe, at the very least, the optics of taxation and the welfare state.

It certainly isn't insurance in any functional sense.

National Pancrack sounds good to me

I like it when silly old fucking hateful Mail readers are made to feel uncomfortably scratty.

the dept of handouts for the economically inactive

Five Live is having a stunt today where people with opposing views chat to each other to discover the joy of the middle ground. No doubt that would hugely improve this thread.

I don't care where the ground is as long as the soil is nice and deep!

Is this noted sex trafficker Emma Barnet's work?

During the election coverage I heard her telling a caller they would be selfish and evil for voting for Corbyn because he's anti-Semite. That wasn't much of a compromise.

lets get some precarious renters from a tenants union and some landlords together and hash out a happy middle ground where everyone is smiling.

Yes, burrowing under a 1000ft deep natural trench full of nuclear waste and a million tonnes of bombs certainly seems safer, doesn’t it > Scottish secretary wants Scotland-NI tunnel not bridge https://t.co/Zf0SgeMyZ5

— Dawn Foster (@DawnHFoster) March 5, 2020

lol, the marching season bridge might have to be a tunnel. Would never have predicted this project floundering as it seemed such a well thought out plan.

I honestly feel for Zarah Sultana

& won the election! 43.6% of the vote. 365 MPs. May be we need to reflect on that...just saying. https://t.co/M3tD78zM1a

— Siobhain McDonagh MP (@Siobhain_Mc) March 5, 2020

tbf you've got to expect Tory MPs to stand up for oh never mind

We were allowed a little bit of hope, as a punishment

— Nihilists for Labour (@Nihilists4Lab) March 4, 2020

such an endless supply of human garbage in the PLP and so few Zara Sultanas. Corbynism needed another decade to get rid of all this shite.

probably another 40 years actually!

What is she just saying? That the party she represents is pointless? That the electoral system is dysfunctional and future campaigning and policy-making has to take this into account? That it's rude to talk about how wealthy and elitist the government is?

Or was it an unreflective kick left on a bored morning in the office and she didn't think anybody would read it?

It might be to do with how emboldened a lot of the right of party have been since the election disaster. It's open season on any of the left MPs, especially BAME ones with the temerity to say Tories are racist.

Attacking pols owned by billionaires is obviously bad practise when the next Labour leader won't even tell members which billionaire his arse is owned by.

Her point seems to be that nobody cares, even if all that stuff is true.

a lot of the Labour Right seem to have their finger on the pulse of the UK electorate, they must be ace at winning elections

Yes, that's absolutely the key thing. Even if they're right that class-based critiques fall on deaf ears, which is a relatively large 'if', the right of the party has offered nothing productive as an alternative.

Also goes without saying that if you do want to take the position that Labour should be articulating a vision for a better future, not just criticising the structure of power, Corbyn was vastly better at that than they ever will be.

he absolutely rinsed Cooper in the election leadership debates

This time it was mainly Nandy who was diverging from the other candidates and it was always too polite for there to be a (lol) honest debate between what Starmer and RLB represent.

That was my point re: MacDonagh, SV. I think you're right about the why, which makes it a witless, destructive thing to do in public. Witless and destructive seems to be all the right of PLP's got.

Sorry I'm sure I spelled her name correctly, think my phone disagreed.

This seems relevant to this thread’s interests

For years now, Popbitch has been Britain's leading authority on which famous people don't wash their hands after using the loo – and never has there been a clearer moment where our expertise is required. So, in order to help stop the spread of coronavirus, these are the celebrities you need to keep an eye on until Covid-19 is contained.

SPOTTED SINK-DODGERS: Madonna, Nick Knowles, Rochelle Humes, Natalie Portman, Frank Skinner, Julian Assange, Tom Watson, Dominic Raab, Sadiq Khan, Christina Aguilera

FASTIDIOUS HAND-WASHERS: Robbie Williams, Sandi Toksvig, Simon Amstell, Al Gore

HIT-AND-MISS: Kay Burley (a little patchy with soap and water apparently, but very consistent with moisturiser)

seriously wouldn't shake hands with clammy piss hands Watson or Khan anyway!

What a fucking headline pic.twitter.com/e3CLpr8yka

— Loki (@Lokinash06) March 5, 2020

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESX2_2ZXcBA1-kB?format=jpg&name=medium

the fucking hatred in those glowering Aryan eyes, glad I voted for Dawn.

who's the dick who was shouting about Johnson's choice of words being "unfortunate" and "robust" but not racist? only saw the clip once

Nick Ferrari, I think?

Yeah it was