Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

but yeah we're just going around in circles

i mean it's not like there aren't a lot of things being written today by black people about how black people voted.

at least try to remove 3-4 kevin bacons to figure this shit out.

otm

ive been f/ing with aperol spritz since visiting bologna last summer fwiw

here's one where you equate Clyburn with the establishment/machine politics and how Bernie is explicitly a threat to that

is that incorrect?

or rather, are either sides of that conjunction wrong?

you're gonna have to work pretty hard to convince me the third-ranking House Democrat isn't part of the Democratic establishment

Doc Casino seemed to think so, do you guys even read other people's posts

it's not like he's running on a "all democrats are crooked, throw the bums out, and we need to clean house of all these political machines" platform.

xps

Sanders definitely railed against the Dem establishment, not just millionaires and billionaires:

I've got news for the Republican establishment. I've got news for the Democratic establishment. They can't stop us.

— Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) February 22, 2020

it's almost as if different people interpret Bernie's rhetoric differently

this thread is infected, someone find a vaccine plz

50 ccs of Negroni, stat

Also, anyone interested in hearing Clyburns explanation: He did a half hour interview as part of the 538 podcast

No vaccine for a year, year and a half, or so I heard.

Shakey, you realize that me, silby and Doc Casino aren’t the same person, right?

drinking red wine right now wondering what Biden was doing the past couple weeks

does he have another job somewhere?

jfc do I have to draw a diagram for everything.

Doc posted: the argument that black voters are for good reason skeptical of anti-"establishment" candidates is viable and interesting. but i think it would require some nuance about the word "establishment." the establishment sanders rails against is "millionaires and billionaires" and "drug companies" and "huge corporations." he's grumbled about the DNC a bit but it's not like he's running on a "all democrats are crooked, throw the bums out, and we need to clean house of all these political machines" platform. that doesn't mean it's impossible for him to offend, alienate, or push away black voters!

this implies that I was misreading other posters' (and Bernie's) statements about what constitutes "the establishment", in the context of James Clyburn.

I posted that I was just responding to what you, silby and milo, had said, which included the quoted posts that directly implicate Clyburn as the establishment that Bernie was explicitly threatening. Why don't you three go to the Bernie thread and work out what you think Bernie is talking about when he says "establishment", whether Clyburn is included in that equation, and whether he (and his black constituents, who followed his lead in the primary vote) was right to feel threatened by Bernie's rhetoric.

this is getting really fucking boring.

lol "getting"

tfw you post a lot and the thread gets boring

Fun fact: three of Clyburn’s top five donor industries per OpenSecrets: insurance, doctors, pharmaceuticals.

Hard to imagine how Bernie as party leader could endanger those relationships.

lol

now do Cedric Richmond

“What this campaign is increasingly about is which side are you on,” Sanders said. “There has never been a campaign in recent history to take on the entire political establishment, an establishment that is working furiously to try and defeat us.”

“I didn’t know African Americans in the South are considered part of the establishment,” said Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-Va.), a co-chairman for the Biden campaign and chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Black people aren't interchangeable, Shakes.

Honest question. It's often mentioned that Biden winning big in a state like SC is meaningless, because the Democrats won't win there anyway. That seems valid. But is it any different than Sanders winning big in California, a state the Democrats will win no matter who's running? Isn't there an equivalency there?

I think the main disconnect here is that clyburn and now Richmond said that Bernie called African American voters in SC "the establishment" which he didn't. He just didn't court their votes by kissing up to clyburn. Bernie's campaign is focused on convincing voters themselves, not on making deals with political power brokers to win votes. That approach didn't work in SC, but it certainly doesn't mean that he has disrespected African American voters as "the establishment" and therefore, "his enemy". In fact, it could be taken as the opposite - he respects them enough to let them decide themselves if they connect with his message rather than just aligning himself with a power broker to pull them in by proxy. Again, I know that didn't work for him, but it seems like some folks are trying too hard to connect the dots of his losses in the south to some sort of implied racism on behalf of him and his supporters.

Biden campaign is obviously using this rhetoric as a wedge issue/trap, but Bernie (and apparently some of his ilx supporters) walk right into it. You wanna call Richmond and Clyburn etc the "establishment", you're writing off their voters, feeding a narrative of being divisive/non-inclusive and yes opening up the campaign to accusations of racism. This is the drawback of trying to run an insurgent campaign against an "establishment" in a party that is built on coalitions - you alienate factions of that coalition who (either rightly or wrongly) see attacks on the "establishment" as attacks on *them specifically*.

xps

yes opening up the campaign to accusations of racism

"If I accuse you of racism, you've opened yourself up to accusations of racism."

Taking kev's advice with your bad faith trolling.

to sum, clyburn and his voters are not the establishment, but “taking on the establishment” is disrespectful to clyburn and his voters

"If I accuse you of racism, you've opened yourself up to accusations of racism."

Taking kev's advice with your bad faith trolling.

It's not my accusations that matter. What do you think Clyburn and Richmond are signaling to African American voters when they say things like “I didn’t know African Americans in the South are considered part of the establishment"?

they’re not the establishment as much as the bedrock. something like 1/5th of the consistent democrats are black and there’s the perception that that bloc is overly cautious in selecting candidates because the risk of having a republican in office is much greater

you could argue that if Obama wasn’t black he wouldn’t have carried as much of the vote in the primary in 2008 since he was one of those less-safe choices

He just didn't court their votes by kissing up to clyburn. Bernie's campaign is focused on convincing voters themselves

if this is even remotely true, it's stupid. it's politics! you have to try to activate as many allies as you can! particularly when they can activate their own constituencies!

It's also honestly disrespectful not to ask black voters what he would have to do to win their votes, but instead just do what he always does and claim it's because he respects them so much

Tweet seems relevant.

No, Joe. The "establishment" are the 60 billionaires who are funding your campaign and the corporate-funded super PACs that are spending millions on negative ads attacking me. https://t.co/XDB8OwJB1L

— Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) March 4, 2020

Pretty much "billionaires".

to sum, clyburn and his voters are not the establishment, but “taking on the establishment” is disrespectful to clyburn and his voters

here let me connect some dots for you

- Bernie says his opposition is the "establishment"
- some of the voters that keep him from notching needed victories turn out to be black voters
- Bernie continues to blame the "establishment"
- Black voters respond "oh, you were talking about US when you said the 'establishment'? Suspicions confirmed."
- Bernie says, "no I meant all the rich people"
- ...

if this is even remotely true, it's stupid. it's politics! you have to try to activate as many allies as you can! particularly when they can activate their own constituencies!

This isn't always possible. As above - Clyburn's donors are the people most adamantly opposed to Bernie's signature issue. He was never going to be a political ally (at this point). (Unless one wants to claim that donors don't matter, which... lol)

I guess we’ll never know if Bernie meant that black southern voters are he establishment he was fighting

No, Joe. The "establishment" are the 60 billionaires who are funding your campaign and the corporate-funded super PACs that are spending millions on negative ads attacking me. https://t.co/XDB8OwJB1L

— Bernie Sanders (@BernieSanders) March 4, 2020

it's entirely possible that Clyburn is as concerned about his donor base as he is about the voters in his district. that's no disrespect to the man himself, but politicians gotta get $$$

xposts

huh. reporting from california i haven't seen a single one of these ads yet.

pfft xpost, blame YMCA wifi that took 23 minutes to post

shocked to discover rambling going on re this establishment

I feel like we should have realized this whole 'Sanders can never win over James Clyburn' thing sooner, so we could have avoided wasting time supporting a candidate who had no shot in hell of winning the nomination?

if I was running attack ads I wouldn't bother running them in California tbf

but hey when Joe finally realizes his dream and strikes that grand bargain to cut SS at least we can say no one was able to make any bad faith arguments about who "The Establishment" actually is

We will blame that on Bernie for not kissing Clyburn's ass enough.

bad faith arguments about who "The Establishment" actually is

Take it up w milo and silby, who have made those arguments in this v thread

It’s almost as if painting all your opposition w a broad brush might have some negative, totally predictable consequences

Meanwhile, machinations at work:

Top surrogates and allies of Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are discussing ways for their two camps to unite and push a common liberal agenda, with the expectation that Warren is likely to leave the presidential campaign soon, according to two people familiar with the talks.

The conversations, which are in an early phase, largely involve members of Congress who back Sanders (I-Vt.) reaching out to those in Warren's camp to explore the prospect that Warren (D-Mass.) might endorse him. They are also appealing to Warren's supporters to switch their allegiance to Sanders, according two people with direct knowledge of the conversations who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss delicate discussions that are supposed to be confidential.

The whirlwind of activity reflects the rapid changes in a Democratic primary that is still very much in transition. As late as Tuesday, many Warren allies believed she would stay in the race until the Democratic convention, despite her poor showing to date in the primaries, in hopes of retaining her clout and influencing the eventual nominee.