Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

I know it's been a rough day but you two are all over the place

the Mormons were violently chased out of multiple states iirc

here, take this shovel

I didn’t say machines were bad or good. They exist, it’s that simple. They and their leaders do benefit from the maintenance of current power structures. Kind of like... an ‘establishment.’

There was no comparison or mention of discrimination, Shakey.

split hairs all you want, equating Mormons with African Americans is stupid and no one should do it

cool straw man you found I guess

thought Gen Xers hated the establishment what gives

I've never had a negroni

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown

wait, can we go back to this

me neither

Here's the thing with machine (Tammany Hall, etc).

They're corrupt, but they feed and clothe poor people, especially non-white people.

I think we could keep doing that and also stop being corrupt

I equated machines, Shakey. That’s the point. Your argument is that it’s racist to talk about South Carolina’s establishment because its leadership and voters are black... but machines exist all over playing the same roles.

speaking of mormons has anyone suggested why bernie did so well in utah?

Meanwhile re "Bernie will bring new voters into the electorate, that's why he's electable" news,

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/03/04/super-tuesday-bernie-sanders-youth-votes-fell-short-compared-2016/4947795002/

I've never had a negroni

Remedy that ASAP! At the very least it's a useful life skill to know how to mix drinks with ingredients in equal ratio. 1:1:1 for the win!

Your argument is that it’s racist to talk about South Carolina’s establishment because its leadership and voters are black...

I made no such argument

Come five o'clock I'm going to have a fucking Negroni. (Which is basically like a regular Negroni, except you handle hot peppers first.)

outic nobody is saying what you're repeatedly telling them they're saying, and they're repeatedly telling you they're not saying that.

also i believe i have had a negroni but i can't really remember what it was like so i guess I should give it another go

It was good, iirc.

for the record (although I dunno why I'm bothering):

- I think dismissing South Carolina's black voters as "establishment" votes is kind of racist, as it smacks of arguing that their votes are not legitimate or worth courting; like I said it positions them as the "enemy" of Bernie's campaign, which is both offensive and stupid tactically.
- I think equating Reid's Nevada political machine (characterizing it as Mormon is weird, I don't think the majority of Nevada Dems are Mormon?) to the black Democratic political machine is racist and ahistorical

xps

At the very least it's a useful life skill to know how to mix drinks with ingredients in equal ratio. 1:1:1 for the win!

Sipping on a Boulevardier as I type and blasting the new U.S. Girls.

- I think dismissing South Carolina's black voters as "establishment" votes is kind of racist

how do you "dismiss" a vote anyway?

I think dismissing South Carolina's black voters as "establishment" votes

You’re literally the (only) person who described them as “his voters.”

I'll just go ahead and quote Alfred here

'To dismiss the African Americans, former Republicans, and indies who voted in overwhelming numbers as people less livid about the state of the world, as several posts I've read have implied, registers as a kind of mansplaining.'

the "dismissed" comment came from Clyburn, obviously he felt Sanders didn't a) think their votes were worth courting or b) was gambling they would be overwhelmed by other voting blocs

let me c+p that again for you

“I find it very interesting that someone is referring to African American voters in South Carolina as the establishment,” Clyburn said. “I don’t understand how that vote can be dismissed.”

Clyburn in that quote seems to be dodging the fact that the establishment isn't "African American voters in South Carolina", it's him, James Clyburn

Or maybe he felt his time would be better spent not in the one state Biden focused his time and resources on? Xps

that's weird cuz without the voters his "establishment" would be powerless

xps

hhhhhhhhhh

shakey are you dense

Or maybe he felt his time would be better spent not in the one state Biden focused his time and resources on?

how did that work out for him

Douthat’s postmortem on Uncle Joe’s Lazarus act surprisingly on point.

Or Clyburn, as a leader of a political machine, saw more advantage (for his constituents, for the machine) in continuing to support the existing party power structure rather than bet on the guy who campaigns on breaking down those structures.

Which is to say, Clyburn was always lost to Bernie but it was ever to be thus because it’s not a matter of wining and dining, it’s about the underlying relationships of power.

It's not like Sanders skipped the fucking world famous fish fry or whatever

Clyburn is not a hypnotist.

Negronis are good btw

Obviously not good but racism is a fuckin outlandish explanation in this case xps

Remedy that ASAP! At the very least it's a useful life skill to know how to mix drinks with ingredients in equal ratio. 1:1:1 for the win!

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:14 PM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Except the equal-parts proportions is exactly what makes a Negroni kind of cloying! If you're mixing a spirit, a fortified wine, and an amaro, I prefer a 2:1:1 ratio.

right, and the underlying relationship of African Americans in South Carolina to that party power structure is that they need and want it, that overall it has delivered for them historically where more radical proposals have not.

xps

At the very least it's a useful life skill to know how to mix drinks with ingredients in equal ratio. 1:1:1 for the win!

The Shaddock for the 1:1:1:1 win -- genever, Aperol, elderflower, lemon juice.

Yes, we’re all clear on why Clyburn’s endorsement carried so much weight. (That’s how successful machines work... they deliver.)

That doesn’t translate to your argument that criticism of or even reference to a South Carolina establishment - which you now seem to agree exists - amounts to a racist attack on black voters.

I do my Negronis with 1.25 gin, .75 Campari, 1.0 vermouth

shakey you are being tendentious and morphing into Fred on one of his bad days. (sorry Fred.) if i said andrew cuomo was a prominent figure in the New York political establishment, would we be arguing about how i just dismissed all of his "establishment voters" and how insensitive that is since many of them are women, minorities, poor, etc.?

Obviously not good but racism is a fuckin outlandish explanation in this case

let's ask some African American South Carolina Dem primary voters how they feel about it, I would think "Sanders doesn't understand the needs of our community" would be a common response that puts it rather kindly. In my experience when black voters are told their votes aren't wanted/needed they tend to draw conclusions white voters might not.

Also, machines can deliver and do good things at times and also do things that some might describe as bad for the machine’s constituents. Perhaps you’ve heard of the Teamsters Union? (Or the Las Vegas Culinary Union?)

Or Clyburn, as a leader of a political machine, saw more advantage (for his constituents, for the machine) in continuing to support the existing party power structure rather than bet on the guy who campaigns on breaking down those structures.

Which is to say, Clyburn was always lost to Bernie but it was ever to be thus because it’s not a matter of wining and dining, it’s about the underlying relationships of power.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:31 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't get how anyone thought Bernie could ever win the nomination if this was the case

My Negronis have more gin than the amaro, with a splash of vermouth.

I dunno Doc, did Cuomo claim that his constituencies votes were being dismissed as the establishment? I didn't make the claim, Clyburn did.

xps

i am with shakey on this. I am not getting the disconnect. They are specifically talking about african american voters and not implying anything.

I could use a hemingway and some vitamin c.

xxpost-ish That looks pretty good! Elderflower(St. Germain?) is a great sweetener. I think the Corpse Reviver #2 wins, though, for a 1:1:1:1, lemon, triple sec, gin and lillet blanc, with a drop of absinthe. Complex and tasty, but easy if you've got the stuff. I think a Negroni does live or die on the quality of the vermouth. Gin is gin, more or less, and Campari is its own thing, but use, say, Carpano Antica, and mmmmm. Obviously it's easy to mess with the ratio to taste of course, or even the ingredients (as in a Boulevardier).