Katrina's POLITICAL aftermath (keep the political discussions HERE)

So, uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure Nagin could've forced bus companies to try a little harder to get people the hell out of there but his culpability in that situation is kind of...limited to say the least.

Nagin is a man of the people, while George W Bush is a chickenhawk racist who only cares about oil and killing "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan. He is a theocrat who wants gay people persecuted and women oppressed according to whatever the Bible says. George W. Bush acted slowly and irresponsibly because he hates average working Americans and he knew that if he did nothing for a few days, people who previously voted against him would die. George W. Bush is indifferent to ordinary Americans, and the result was first 9/11 and now, this global warming-fueled hurricane. All this from a guy who stole two straight presidential elections.

The fact is, if we don't focus most of our blame on the Chimperor, he will likely continue to lower taxes at the expense of the poor and working class. He will also continue the illegal war in Iraq, continue to lie about weapons of mass destruction, work to eliminate reproductive freedoms, and nominate radical conservatives to the Supreme Court. We need to impeach this lying, cheating, evil motherfucker before it's too late. It may already be!

Nagin is a great guy, and I don't give a shit if 2,000 buses were parked neatly in their lots in lieu of using them for evacuations. I don't care if the police force or the parish leadership has been crooked for decades. What Nagin has done pales to the pure, unadulterated evil that is George W. Bush.

However, why aren't any of you up in arms about how moronic prepration was. They had all those buses, never used them. Just told people to get to the superdome, and furthermore, find your own way of getting there.

Everyone is making Nagin look like some bad ass hero, "get off your asses," and what not. Seems to me he was sitting on his before Katrina hit.

I am not an apologist for Bush by any means, but people need to start talking about what efforts should be made on state and city levels. this is just rediculous. there was no effort in trying to remove these people before hand. They should have had people driving into the communities with transportation and removing them.

I know this is an argument alot of asshole right wingers are using right now, trying to take some of the blame off their boy, Bush, BUT there is some merit to some of this.

The bottom line is, as gypsy said, you can;t evacuate anyone. Best case scenario evacuation here still would've resulted in absolute horror, just a smaller scale, 5,000 people instead of 15,000.

Well, yeah, apart from also not bothering to take seriously all along the fact that the levees were going to break and, golly gee, destroy an entire city.

Personally I think they should hammer away at two themes: Republican incompetence in the face of crises (at home and abroad) and Republican unwillingness to fund basic infrastructure maintenance, much less infrastructure improvements. "Did you like your tax cuts? How much have you given back at the pump? How much is left over?" The DNC is having trouble establishing a positive identity of its own, so it needs to emphasize "at least we're not the dumbasses in power now."

For instance,

"What Nagin has done pales to the pure, unadulterated evil that is George W. Bush."

I do realize, however, that you were venting. And that is fine. It just reminds me of a conversation I had when i was living out in Boulder. I can't remember what it was about specifically, but the rebuttal I was givin included a wide array of injustices commited by the goverment. I believe at one point I was being lectured about the Maquiladoras, which was completely unrelated.

All I'm saying it I was looking for some answers. You guys have given me some. I appreciate Allyzay's comments. I dont need a history lesson though, nor a lecture about Bush's lack of interest in the common man. I'm well aware of it, I went to school with many people just like him. Rich and uninvolved with reality.

OTOH I mean the specific blame of Bush alone hasn't even been really a factor in any of these discussions so I have no idea why I'm even replying to you, I mean Chertoff, Brown, Hastert, etc etc have ALL been brought up numerous times by everyone criticizing the administration so really get off it.

XPOST Yes, incompetancy of local administration will surely continue in a city that no longer exists for the conceivable time being...you know, the governor hasn't been scott free of criticism either. And, you know, Nagin et al aren't in charge of, for example, Mississippi...

i guess it could go either way at this point? which is presumably one of the reasons bush has admitted that the response has been inadequate (as there is plenty blame to go round), and get the enquiry in early, and go on the offensive, as blame of this size is something a presidency really doesnt need to be associated with.

as for the reconstruction of the city, am i right in understanding haliburton already has this in the bag? theres so much happening right now, its difficult to take in. so, whats the future for the city, will the poorer areas be cleared away? is that valuable real estate which will now be used for different purposes? does this mean a lot of the people won't be coming back?

yeah Allyzay, so true that Bushco is one of the biggest clusterfucks in history. I'm no scholar in that area but I suppose taking your word for it is good enough for the purposes of this thread.

Good point Gypsy--there's no way a guy like Nagin's incompetent. He was in the eye of the storm man, just acting on instinct. If it weren't for him, the Superdome and convention center wouldn't have been used. And to hell with all those who blame him for not having an evacuation program beforehand or using the 2,000+ school buses. It's clear he was at the top of his game, and charge of incompetence are totally, completely, 100% unwarranted. If he were white, people wouldn't be saying that shit man.

I don't think anyone's saying that. Are they? Where? That 2,000 school buses is a nice GOP talking point, but parroting it doesn't really say much of anything. Of course they could have gotten more people out. But realistically, no matter what you did you would have ended up with thousands and thousands of people stranded in the city, for a lot of different reasons. What prompted the anger at the feds -- and what no amount of blame-shifting can erase from last week's events -- was the perception that they had no idea what was going on long after everyone else in the whole country knew what was going on, and that even when they sort of figured out that this was (Chertoff's words) "an ultra-catastrophe," it took for-fucking-ever for them to respond, even though they were at that point the authority most capable of useful response because the local and state authorities were totally overwhelmed -- as they would have been regardless of extra preparation or readiness, because the city was under water.

But really, Don, I'm surprised you're engaging in the local-vs-fed argument, since I'd assume your default to be that nobody should ever expect any government to do anything and we'd all be better off not paying any taxes and just stocking up on artillery and sandbags.

New Orleans is a relatively small and very poor city. It does not and will never have the resources of a city like New York (without outside assistance.) If you say "Everyone for themselves," I say fuck you.

I really can't figure out why you continue to make assumptions like this on political threads when it'd be a lot easier to simply asky me what I think the government should have done in this case.

hstencil is gravitating towards the heart of the matter and Hurting adds more. There's simply no way that Nagin or anyone else (including the governor, who actually bears quite a bit of responsibility here) could have done much given the situation. But Nagin certainly didn't rise to the occasion--you think citizens are jazzed that he was hanging out in Baton Rouge while the city was going through a shitstorm?--except in the context that this is such an ideal time to affix the majority of the blame to a weakened president. Buses and other resources weren't used, the contingency and emergency plans were minimal and insufficient. Nagin didn't have manpower, but he didn't have many ideas either.

you think it would've made more sense for command-and-control elements to stay in the city? how would nagin be able to coordinate any relief or search and rescue efforts when city hall is underwater, there's no electricity or phone service, etc.?

--except in the context that this is such an ideal time to affix the majority of the blame to a weakened president.

you don't seem to get that people are not blaming bush because it's "an ideal time" to do so, but merely because he fucked up big. believe it or not, not everybody mad at the president right now is a dnc operative.

Buses and other resources weren't used, the contingency and emergency plans were minimal and insufficient. Nagin didn't have manpower, but he didn't have many ideas either.

honestly, we don't know for sure exactly what happened in terms of nagin and the city's response, aside from anecdotal stuff. hell, i don't think the nopd has a handle on where all of its officers are, still. we do know, however, that:

1. fema's response was inadequate given that the area was declared a disaster zone by bush before katrina hit
2. the bush administration had, over the past three years, cut funding to the corps of engineers - new orleans district

He had the idea to holler "HEEEEEELLLLLP!" He did that pretty well, which was all he could do past a point. Anyway, how New Orleanians feel about his handling of it will I'm sure become clear as we go on.

But look, this isn't just about affixing blame to a weakened president. That's somewhat backward. This is about a president who's been weakened by his ineffectiveness and persistent inability or refusal to recognize or address reality -- whether in foreign or domestic affairs -- once more demonstrating that incapacity to see things clearly and react accordingly. It's also about a gang of people who have spent 40-odd years reciting the mantra that "government is the problem, not the solution" failing to recognize that sometimes, government is actually supposed to be the solution. The free market ain't gonna evacuate any cities or shore up any levees, and I don't care what Grover Norquist says, repealing the estate tax is not a sensible response to the decimation of a metropolis.

Norquist is one of the main forces of evil that has influence in the government. There is also speculation that he's influencing government policy in the Middle East because of his Islamist connections.

again, i turned the radio off so i wouldn't smash it against the wall.

It'll probably be archived & online soon.

Though my favorite former president quote of the weekend is Clinton offering to assault Denny Hastert.

eh? what/when was this?

Re Hastert: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090202156.html

"asymmetric" ("not fair")

heh.

I mean no one here is saying that Blanco is scott free. No one is saying that about any of Louisiana's elected officials. But they weren;t in the same kind of position FEMA is SUPPOSED to be in, are they?

the city of Louisiana!

xpost

I can't help but picture Darrell Hammond-as-Clinton saying this, with the requisite lower-lip-biting.