Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

nobody likes your posts and I’m starting to feel embarrassed as a fellow Warren supporter

xp

it is hard to comprehend the mass delusion that's going on w/ this subject, like the obama years just straight up never occurred for you guys. he just didn't have a true movement? he didn't have fight?

Well, the thing that Bernie supporters often bring up as a criticism of Obama is that he had a grass-roots movement with millions of excited members, who could have been mobilized to support his initiatives, call lukewarm representatives, support endangered candidates in the midterms, etc, but he didn't do that, and instead folded his organization into the DNC.

I like iatee's posts

i like iatee even if i disagree

I'm sorry but I'm going to come right out and say it. I like Warren and would gladly vote for her were she the nominee, but anyone who thinks Warren has better political instincts than Bernie is higher as shit.

high as shit v. higher than shit

May I suggest that your awareness of anti-Bernie memes is...flawed? Lacking? I think I will.

given that trump has actually given a "LEAVE BERNIE ALONE (small voice) i don't agree with bernie but (trump voice again) LEAVE BERNIE ALONE" speech at his rally, they have not appeared to be very consistently messaged

“Surprise guest” and native Texan Marianne Williamson endorses Bernie Sanders for president at his rally in Austin, TX pic.twitter.com/wpBb2MK4iM

— Emma Kinery (@EmmaKinery) February 23, 2020

xpost well, yeah

tbf Trump's entire m.o. is saying something that implies he has a plan or opinion, letting the media and people who think presidential politics are important latch on to what he said, and then doing the same thing on a completely different topic the next day

I think we're constantly getting snowed by listening to whatever junk he's spewing on a daily basis to the exclusion of following actual policy. Not that policy isn't covered in the news, but that the diversions eat up too much space

Chuck Todd helped him enormously by inviting every Trump White House imbecile this morning to comment on Sanders

thanks guys, I will try harder to broaden my appeal towards the ever so hard to please tombot demographic.

look at this point sanders has basically locked it up.  I'm not here to convince anybody to vote for warren, it's over. we all get to just sit and watch this weird science experiment in real time. we gave morbs the keys to the car, where we gonna end up, who knows.

this message board doesn't go anywhere, and as soon as president sanders passes m4a someone can bump my posts and make fun of me endlessly - I'll be thrilled to live in that world, where we've somehow managed to break all the rules that bound us from enacting large scale change overnight.

but I think there really is some amount of delusion w/r/t sanders, some on this board and much more outside of it w/ people who might not be so dedicated to the details. I don't think talking about it is a bad thing and I don't think sanders supporters moving towards a politics of the real is a bad thing. m4a is a cool long-term project to aim towards but there are real people out there who think they're gonna get it pretty soon and all that it takes is increasing our fight score.

And iatee getting all agro about Warren losing is the dumbest shit ever. I have resisted becoming a Bernie supporter until recently for a number of reasons (male, white, old), but if the situation were reversed and Warren was tearing shit up, I would gladly be banging Warren drum.

xp

xp and insofar as he's help build this narrative, I think his campaign has been disingenuous

Agreed. I have concerns of one kind or another about all the Dem candidates, but for Sanders it has less to do with his ability to move a legislative agenda -- because I agree that's a challenge, regardless of who the president is -- than his leadership of the executive branch. I feel like that rarely gets talked about enough, and it's a huge part of the job. I know Sanders was mayor, but that was of a small city and it was a long time ago. He's so used to and comfortable being a loner that it's a little hard for me to see him actually running something the size of the federal government. My preference for Warren is tied directly to that. I think she would be a much better administrator. And given how important that's become, with both Obama and Trump basically doing any executive end-runs they can around Congress, it's a significant issue.

Her pre-Senate career was as an academic and lawyer aiui? What is the basis for thinking she would be a better administrator? Not saying it's wrong but genuinely curious. Also, I've been expecting that she will probably have an important position in Sanders's administration if he does win (far from a given obv) so I don't think her abilities would be wasted in any case.

I'm as cranky and befuddled as anybody with the zealotry possessed by a lot of Bernie supporters, but that's a very distinct issue than whether (or by how much) the Dems are going to win in November. The data-free Eeyore act is really tiresome.

I'm sorry but I'm going to come right out and say it. I like Warren and would gladly vote for her were she the nominee, but anyone who thinks Warren has better political instincts than Bernie is higher as shit.

idk where you think you saw me claim this, I think warren ran an okay but flawed campaign but is a less tempting target for the right wing hate machine and would make be a better president

mobilized to support his initiatives, call lukewarm representatives, support endangered candidates in the midterms, etc, but he didn't do that, and instead folded his organization into the DNC.

yeah I assume this is the crux of how Bernie thinks his approach will be different - energise people enough to pressure their representatives for the changes the people want. we've already seen all but one and a half Republican senators completely bend to one fuck's whim because they're scared of mean tweets, ffs*: this should expose how vulnerable they are to pressure.

I also agree iatee is making his case weakly but should not stfu (xp)

* from someone who has demonstrated contempt for anyone who will not stand up to him!

xp -- I'm not sure how you can say she's a less tempting target when the right-wing hate machine has already been targeting her, from multiple angles (the corporate stock market types are freaking out about how she will single-handedly destroy all wealth, the trumpian maga types are yelling pocahontas and, if they haven't quite cranked the misogyny into gear, have at least left it at a dull roar)

(to be clear I'm not saying anyone should shut up, not trying to dunk on anyone, etc.; that said, these are things that are happening, now, and have been for some time, which gives them an edge over speculation)

The idea that Sanders will yell at Trump voters in West Virginia and suddenly convert them into Democratic voters (or even supporters of Dem policy) is the most amusing fiction held by his followers. I've got a much younger Sanders-voting buddy, working for the Miami-Dade Progressive caucus, and he thinks Sanders + Trump voters got shit in common economically. And they do! But as story after story has pointed out since 2016 they're fucking racist, and they'll vote for any GOP policy that screws them over so long as the Mexican and the black welfare mother doesn't get benefits. I see this phenomenon all the time in South Florida.

Katherine otm

a less tempting target for the right wing hate machine

The woman every guy with a goatee and Oakleys calls Pocahontas by reflex?

xp -- I'm not sure how you can say she's a less tempting target when the right-wing hate machine has already been targeting her, from multiple angles (the corporate stock market types are freaking out about how she will single-handedly destroy all wealth, the trumpian maga types are yelling pocahontas and, if they haven't quite cranked the misogyny into gear, have at least left it at a dull roar)

katherine otmfm. We definitely haven't seen the full scale of the communist/jewish attacks that are coming for Bernie, but one of the reasons why Warren is losing and Bernie is winning is that the establishment has been able to make attacks stick on Warren and haven't been able to make those SAME attacks stick on Bernie. The partial answer may be misogyny, but to ignore Warren's track record in responding to crises in her campaign is *whatever*.

ftr I didn’t tell anybody to stfu

my theory with Trump's congrats Bernie thing and being measured is that he truly, intensely hates Bloomberg and wants to see him humiliated first, then he can deal with Bernie

that was before bloomberg was really a factor I'm pretty sure, it was around the "bernie said she shouldn't run" discourse

I'm as cranky and befuddled as anybody with the zealotry possessed by a lot of Bernie supporters, but that's a very distinct issue than whether (or by how much) the Dems are going to win in November. The data-free Eeyore act is really tiresome.

I find it tragic that in what should be one of the most winnable elections we've ever had we still couldn't just end up with a strong, safe and broadly appealing candidate so that we didn't have to sweat the thought of another 4 years of cheeto for the rest of the year. I had hoped warren would turn into that person and she didn't, partly because sanders ate her lunch but she scared off the centrists too, which is both on them and her. the remaining candidates were all just weak / also failed at becoming that person.

and before people quote 'strong, safe and broadly appealing candidate' and say 'actually,' - no, sanders is not safe, this is a science experiment.

Have you paid attention to Dem presidential primaries before?

cheeto

oh you're one of those

the “strong, safe and broadly appealing” ones are the ones who end up winning the popular vote and losing on technicalities

like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine) at 6:20 23 Feb 20

that was before bloomberg was really a factor I'm pretty sure, it was around the "bernie said she shouldn't run" discourse

oh sorry I meant what he said yesterday but he has been pretty gloves off the whole time

strong, safe and broadly appealing

Define "strong"

Define "safe"

Define "broadly appealing"

yeah i think a significant advantage is that Bernie has had a long time to establish his brand, he's very repetitive, and he avoids what he sees as distractions. 8 months is still a long time for attacks to start working, but it's harder to damage someone when people already have a basic idea of who they are and what they stand for.

xp -- if you're referring to clinton winning the popular vote in 2016 but not the electoral vote, she was more or less the exact opposite of "broadly appealing" (for reasons both justified and not)

She won the popular vote by nearly3 million votes, that seems pretty broadly appealing to me

Again, not a fan of replacing data (which there is a lot of) with narratives borrowed from pundits

She was also running against semi-sentient garbage, which leads a lot of people (like me) to vote for her even when she's completely unappealing.

I should never have to push the button for someone who thinks "America is ALREADY grebt" but nevertheless

Whether or not Hillary was "appealing" or "popular" is the kind of question that leads to a neverending and at this point highly predictable series of volleys that will never end in a point

yeah probably otm

brb going to the horrible ideas thread, thanks for the inspiration, man alive!

The real horrible thread idea is going full LARP and having an Obama-Clinton poll as if it was February 2008 to run with these appealing/popularity arguments.

I have to leave this thread for the night so I’m not arguing w/ people on my phone online instead of paying attention to people irl

Godspeed

thank you for your service

that is the best level of speed

xp

it's actually just behind a ten-speed. can't beat a ten-speed

Shakey bait

We’re not looking to keep Pelosi because there’s a progressive running against her who supports Medicare for All and the Green New Deal among other things. Check out @ShahidForChange at https://t.co/g293QvlKFB and vote by March 3rd. https://t.co/6G8MWfUzIP

— Susan Sarandon (@SusanSarandon) February 23, 2020