Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

but the thing is, the right-wing propaganda does not wait until the primary is over. there's a reason donald trump and fox news and co. have been making pocahontas and burisma comments until their faces turn red: to prime the pump

I don't think Fox News is inviting Sanders on their shows because they want him to be the candidate per se, but because they feel like a Democratic Party with internal strife is useful in achieving their goals.

To an extent it's the same thing that's misunderstood about foreign interference in domestic politics. At one level, there are candidates that the ruling parties of other countries would prefer in place. But more often, it's to amplify internal struggle and keep the national focus off of international affairs or destabilize public support. "Russia wants X candidate to win!" isn't an argument against that candidate necessarily, any more than "wow the soviets are supporting the black panthers" comments were decades ago.

Supporting the causes that pry open the dialogue about the shortcomings and hypocrisy in our domestic policy doesn't mean that those shortcomings don't exist. Nor does Fox's amplifying of a further-left voice mean that there isn't a natural audience for further-left voices.

katherine otm

I also think that sanders’ downsides as a candidate aren’t fully priced into his polling yet.

Unfortunately I think this is true for all the other candidates too

(to address the "why do you know so much about/pay so much attention to this," I have to watch it for a job

theres been leaked conversations where trump has said he thinks sanders is the most formidable candidate and is worried that just crying "socialism" will be effective against him. there is a significant portion of the right-wing media establishment that seems to be underestimating sanders in a similar way to how the dems underestimated trump though.

trump's preferred scenario at this stage seems to be a maximum chaos dem contested convention where sanders barely loses out due to superdelegates and establishment shenanigans so sanders supporters are demoralised, lowering turnout and making a trump victory much more likely. mh otm

will the gop manage to weave a strong narrative about a dude who was basically a bum for a lot of his life and never had a career outside of politics?

lol they elected one last time. being outside politics is a plus. i don’t think they’ll go there. it seems more likely that they paint bernie as a deep stater, inside the beltway lifer. just a hunch though.

not for warren who is apparently unwilling to fight much for her own agenda with that being a good thing somehow.

what evidence have you of this? She took on the Obama admin Wall Street people and was a ruthless questioner in testimony.

"He was a BUM" is up there with "he's not even a real DEMOCRAT" in missing the point.

xpost to myself (which is the title of my next album):

i realise now that’s what you’re saying - that a lot of life outside politics gives them fewer attack lines? but he has had a lot of life inside it too

hillary wanted trump. who cares?

what evidence have you of this? She took on the Obama admin Wall Street people and was a ruthless questioner in testimony.

this was the argument iatee was making in favour of warren's pragmatism - that she isn't going to fight for healthcare. while i don't think warren's stated plan to pass m4a (public option first and then only fighting for m4a after midterms) is particularly well thought out, i don't really doubt that she would fight to achieve it. it just seems to be starting from a weaker position than sanders who is also a stronger believer in movement politics.

but the thing is, the right-wing propaganda does not wait until the primary is over. there's a reason donald trump and fox news and co. have been making pocahontas and burisma comments until their faces turn red: to prime the pump

until now they've been focused on what they considered the real threats, which is why sanders doesn't have any real right-wing memes attached to him and warren and biden do. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that they wanted to run against him. and maybe that's a mistake - the current polls suggest it is - but they're projecting that the guy who looks and sounds like we picked him up from a berkeley bus stop is gonna a pretty good project to work with.

it is true that regardless of who we run they're going to have to deal w/ the putin/fox news machine but I think it's silly to pretend like sanders has gone through the grinder just because dems said his ideas were unrealistic a bunch of times on tv. things never got personal in the way that they're going to get soon.

I kinda feel like Bernie's personality is kind of a positive in that regard?

Re: the discussion of foreign policy, the quite good article that David Klion wrote for the Nation a week back indicates that Warren does want to separate herself from the more standard foreign policy of Obama and the more moderate candidates and hew closer to Bernie's views, but is trying to do that in a way that maintains some ties to the foreign policy establishment. How this works in practice I don't know - Obama had the same ideas, and you ended up with people like Samantha Power making more and more compromises and acquiescing to the wishes of the establishment. But it ends up causing the same problems as her health care proposals - too radical for the moderates and too hesitant for the leftists to fully trust, perfect for a select group of well-educated people who have trouble selling her to anyone who is dubious.

lol at the notion that sanders does not have right-wing memes attached to him

Regarding the forthcoming right-wing attacks, sure, they're coming, I imagine that the polls will tighten, and that they would no matter who is nominated. I think that Bernie has good instincts about what should be responded to and what should be ignored, and he's quite good at taking negative questions and transitioning to his stump speech topics in a way that doesn't come off too weaselly.

i liked his response to bloomberg's calling him a communist during the debate: "that's a cheap shot." then he moved on. bloomberg looked like a prick

this was the argument iatee was making in favour of warren's pragmatism - that she isn't going to fight for healthcare. while i don't think warren's stated plan to pass m4a (public option first and then only fighting for m4a after midterms) is particularly well thought out, i don't really doubt that she would fight to achieve it. it just seems to be starting from a weaker position than sanders who is also a stronger believer in movement politics.

again, I don't believe that this magic 'fight' that you're conjuring can actually do things and in these scenarios you're just letting this word do all the work for you. there is nothing mysterious about how bills become law, you either have the votes or you don't. we are not remotely close to having the votes for m4a, and we won't be remotely close even with 50 senators. it is hard to comprehend the mass delusion that's going on w/ this subject, like the obama years just straight up never occurred for you guys. he just didn't have a true movement? he didn't have fight?

until now they've been focused on what they considered the real threats, which is why sanders doesn't have any real right-wing memes attached to him and warren and biden do.

May I suggest that your awareness of anti-Bernie memes is...flawed? Lacking? I think I will.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that they wanted to run against him. and maybe that's a mistake - the current polls suggest it is - but they're projecting that the guy who looks and sounds like we picked him up from a berkeley bus stop is gonna a pretty good project to work with.

It's true; they're gonna call him a Communist. Which as I said way upthread, is likely to be about as powerful as calling him a Fauvist. It's 2020.

things never got personal in the way that they're going to get soon.

Oh, no...Republicans are gonna say mean, unfounded shit to their frothing, knuckle-walking, mouth-breathing voters, all of whom are already 100% in the tank for Donald Trump? This is it — we're doomed for sure!

Seriously, make an affirmative case (or at least an evidence-based negative one): who do you think is leaning toward voting for Bernie Sanders, but can be convinced to vote for Donald motherfucking Trump by a negative political ad/news story? Especially after we've already had four years of Trump?

nobody likes your posts and I’m starting to feel embarrassed as a fellow Warren supporter

xp

it is hard to comprehend the mass delusion that's going on w/ this subject, like the obama years just straight up never occurred for you guys. he just didn't have a true movement? he didn't have fight?

Well, the thing that Bernie supporters often bring up as a criticism of Obama is that he had a grass-roots movement with millions of excited members, who could have been mobilized to support his initiatives, call lukewarm representatives, support endangered candidates in the midterms, etc, but he didn't do that, and instead folded his organization into the DNC.

I like iatee's posts

i like iatee even if i disagree

I'm sorry but I'm going to come right out and say it. I like Warren and would gladly vote for her were she the nominee, but anyone who thinks Warren has better political instincts than Bernie is higher as shit.

high as shit v. higher than shit

May I suggest that your awareness of anti-Bernie memes is...flawed? Lacking? I think I will.

given that trump has actually given a "LEAVE BERNIE ALONE (small voice) i don't agree with bernie but (trump voice again) LEAVE BERNIE ALONE" speech at his rally, they have not appeared to be very consistently messaged

“Surprise guest” and native Texan Marianne Williamson endorses Bernie Sanders for president at his rally in Austin, TX pic.twitter.com/wpBb2MK4iM

— Emma Kinery (@EmmaKinery) February 23, 2020

xpost well, yeah

tbf Trump's entire m.o. is saying something that implies he has a plan or opinion, letting the media and people who think presidential politics are important latch on to what he said, and then doing the same thing on a completely different topic the next day

I think we're constantly getting snowed by listening to whatever junk he's spewing on a daily basis to the exclusion of following actual policy. Not that policy isn't covered in the news, but that the diversions eat up too much space

Chuck Todd helped him enormously by inviting every Trump White House imbecile this morning to comment on Sanders

thanks guys, I will try harder to broaden my appeal towards the ever so hard to please tombot demographic.

look at this point sanders has basically locked it up.  I'm not here to convince anybody to vote for warren, it's over. we all get to just sit and watch this weird science experiment in real time. we gave morbs the keys to the car, where we gonna end up, who knows.

this message board doesn't go anywhere, and as soon as president sanders passes m4a someone can bump my posts and make fun of me endlessly - I'll be thrilled to live in that world, where we've somehow managed to break all the rules that bound us from enacting large scale change overnight.

but I think there really is some amount of delusion w/r/t sanders, some on this board and much more outside of it w/ people who might not be so dedicated to the details. I don't think talking about it is a bad thing and I don't think sanders supporters moving towards a politics of the real is a bad thing. m4a is a cool long-term project to aim towards but there are real people out there who think they're gonna get it pretty soon and all that it takes is increasing our fight score.

And iatee getting all agro about Warren losing is the dumbest shit ever. I have resisted becoming a Bernie supporter until recently for a number of reasons (male, white, old), but if the situation were reversed and Warren was tearing shit up, I would gladly be banging Warren drum.

xp

xp and insofar as he's help build this narrative, I think his campaign has been disingenuous

Agreed. I have concerns of one kind or another about all the Dem candidates, but for Sanders it has less to do with his ability to move a legislative agenda -- because I agree that's a challenge, regardless of who the president is -- than his leadership of the executive branch. I feel like that rarely gets talked about enough, and it's a huge part of the job. I know Sanders was mayor, but that was of a small city and it was a long time ago. He's so used to and comfortable being a loner that it's a little hard for me to see him actually running something the size of the federal government. My preference for Warren is tied directly to that. I think she would be a much better administrator. And given how important that's become, with both Obama and Trump basically doing any executive end-runs they can around Congress, it's a significant issue.

Her pre-Senate career was as an academic and lawyer aiui? What is the basis for thinking she would be a better administrator? Not saying it's wrong but genuinely curious. Also, I've been expecting that she will probably have an important position in Sanders's administration if he does win (far from a given obv) so I don't think her abilities would be wasted in any case.

I'm as cranky and befuddled as anybody with the zealotry possessed by a lot of Bernie supporters, but that's a very distinct issue than whether (or by how much) the Dems are going to win in November. The data-free Eeyore act is really tiresome.

I'm sorry but I'm going to come right out and say it. I like Warren and would gladly vote for her were she the nominee, but anyone who thinks Warren has better political instincts than Bernie is higher as shit.

idk where you think you saw me claim this, I think warren ran an okay but flawed campaign but is a less tempting target for the right wing hate machine and would make be a better president

mobilized to support his initiatives, call lukewarm representatives, support endangered candidates in the midterms, etc, but he didn't do that, and instead folded his organization into the DNC.

yeah I assume this is the crux of how Bernie thinks his approach will be different - energise people enough to pressure their representatives for the changes the people want. we've already seen all but one and a half Republican senators completely bend to one fuck's whim because they're scared of mean tweets, ffs*: this should expose how vulnerable they are to pressure.

I also agree iatee is making his case weakly but should not stfu (xp)

* from someone who has demonstrated contempt for anyone who will not stand up to him!

xp -- I'm not sure how you can say she's a less tempting target when the right-wing hate machine has already been targeting her, from multiple angles (the corporate stock market types are freaking out about how she will single-handedly destroy all wealth, the trumpian maga types are yelling pocahontas and, if they haven't quite cranked the misogyny into gear, have at least left it at a dull roar)

(to be clear I'm not saying anyone should shut up, not trying to dunk on anyone, etc.; that said, these are things that are happening, now, and have been for some time, which gives them an edge over speculation)

The idea that Sanders will yell at Trump voters in West Virginia and suddenly convert them into Democratic voters (or even supporters of Dem policy) is the most amusing fiction held by his followers. I've got a much younger Sanders-voting buddy, working for the Miami-Dade Progressive caucus, and he thinks Sanders + Trump voters got shit in common economically. And they do! But as story after story has pointed out since 2016 they're fucking racist, and they'll vote for any GOP policy that screws them over so long as the Mexican and the black welfare mother doesn't get benefits. I see this phenomenon all the time in South Florida.

Katherine otm

a less tempting target for the right wing hate machine

The woman every guy with a goatee and Oakleys calls Pocahontas by reflex?

xp -- I'm not sure how you can say she's a less tempting target when the right-wing hate machine has already been targeting her, from multiple angles (the corporate stock market types are freaking out about how she will single-handedly destroy all wealth, the trumpian maga types are yelling pocahontas and, if they haven't quite cranked the misogyny into gear, have at least left it at a dull roar)

katherine otmfm. We definitely haven't seen the full scale of the communist/jewish attacks that are coming for Bernie, but one of the reasons why Warren is losing and Bernie is winning is that the establishment has been able to make attacks stick on Warren and haven't been able to make those SAME attacks stick on Bernie. The partial answer may be misogyny, but to ignore Warren's track record in responding to crises in her campaign is *whatever*.

ftr I didn’t tell anybody to stfu

my theory with Trump's congrats Bernie thing and being measured is that he truly, intensely hates Bloomberg and wants to see him humiliated first, then he can deal with Bernie

that was before bloomberg was really a factor I'm pretty sure, it was around the "bernie said she shouldn't run" discourse

I'm as cranky and befuddled as anybody with the zealotry possessed by a lot of Bernie supporters, but that's a very distinct issue than whether (or by how much) the Dems are going to win in November. The data-free Eeyore act is really tiresome.

I find it tragic that in what should be one of the most winnable elections we've ever had we still couldn't just end up with a strong, safe and broadly appealing candidate so that we didn't have to sweat the thought of another 4 years of cheeto for the rest of the year. I had hoped warren would turn into that person and she didn't, partly because sanders ate her lunch but she scared off the centrists too, which is both on them and her. the remaining candidates were all just weak / also failed at becoming that person.