to form babby, or not to form babby

my brother's third child has pretty bad arthrogryposis and they were notified of this while he was still a fetus. they still decided to proceed with the pregnancy. I was like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . and then when they became super anti-choice that shrug turned into an eyeroll emoji. My nephew seems fine, but he's still young and already has had endless operations on his legs and back and hands.

maybe i'm wrong here, but don't silby's and even j.'s arguments assume that there is "something" unconceived, that is acted upon by being conceived? but there is nothing. so the "crime" of bringing it into existence is, literally, victimless crime, a crime against nothing/no one

tbh that stance reminded me of anti-natalism: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born

xps no

aww thanks j. i see i'm wrong, sorry for the stupid question

hurray for one less son of a bitch

why should I, personally, forgive my parents

put another way, i think one can say "satisfaction not guaranteed, but on balance it's a good thing" without suddenly transforming into a utilitarian

i want silby to write a response song to 'i hope you dance' from the child's pov called something like 'you hoped i'd dance but did you even consider if it was in my best interest to be born?'. it'd be like the 'no pigeons' song by sporty thievz.

Kinder’s answer is pretty much exactly ours: we both decided we’d probably regret it more if we hadn’t had kids, plus there was basically a moment after this vague anti-decision when E definitely and quite strongly wanted kids. And I was fine with that. Plus I’d seen my older brothers struggle to conceive and suffer miscarriages.

So much we didn’t know. Oh holy fuck what we didn’t know.

I love my kids. They are beautiful and funny and smart and charming - C regularly has older kids fawning over him and talking to him like he’s five rather than two, which I find weird, but he does seem to have this magnetism sometimes that he’s oblivious to. Maybe every kid does but you don’t notice it in other peoples’.

But I do sometimes wonder if it was worth it. Especially given what we’ve been through with C’s cancer. E always says “wtf else would we do with our lives, wtf DID we do before?!” and I agree - they give you SO MUCH purpose - but I can also think of plenty of things I’d do without kids in my life. Would I prefer it? Sometimes.

Knowing what I do now, would we still have had a second? Sometimes I think not. But then I think about C not having existed and, despite everything, it breaks my heart.

One of the best things about kids is watching them eat when they’re about two. Watching N eat back then, and C now, pretty much makes it worthwhile.

And it’s not about ‘continuing the family line’ or whatever but I do have this sense that if you don’t leave someone better behind after you to be a custodian of this world then it’s all been for nothing.

So are children for being special to you or for being their own person

great, great post nick

Had a vasectomy after two - because ‘do nothing more than replace yourself’ - and at five months he was diagnosed with cancer and I felt irrational guilt at us not being able to replace him.

Thank you rvw.

I mean, there’s this: https://www.instagram.com/p/B8TVByUpfeB/?igshid=1h7f0lelt3810

And being able to ride bikes and listen to records and go out to the cinema or a restaurant or drink wine on a rooftop in Andalusia whenever you want is GREAT, but these people who are laughing their heads of and having the time of their lives came out of my wife’s vagina and I put them there and she grew them and HOLY FUCK THATS MAD.

i read sheila heti's semi-fiction "motherhood" and rachel cusk's book about this (see https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/mar/21/biography.women for background on that). read em a bit late (one baby out, another one on the way), but i thought they were both very good.

i can't think of any serious writing like that from a male perspective (recommendations welcome).

listen, I'm an idiot who hasn't read enough books, I'm getting to the end of my rhetorical rope here, all I want is for parents to accept that they've inflicted a potentially grievous harm on their children by having them

<3

Aimless

there's the rub. It's rare to know in advance what your probabilities are.

Yes, sadly, my daughter Puffaleta will be in a very different position from us if she considers babby. She's a carrier, so if she forms a boy babby there's about a 50% chance that said babby will be severely intellectually disabled.

Her choices will be like:

1. Not form babby
2. Adopt babby
3. Select a girl babby
4. Employ some yet-to-emerge technology to form a healthy babby (? Who knows where the science will be in 15-20 years?)
5. Roll the dice and form babby anyway (Not a path I would choose, but ultimately it will be up to her and a hypothetical future partner. She's bisexual, not that that is a determining factor.)

For my son Pufflet I just don't know if he'll ever be in a position to even think about forming babby.

Many xps, this was a difficult post to write. I want to go back and savor Mouthy's posts and respond a bit later

being a human and having a human are both risky ventures

Scik Mouthy, I also had a vasectomy after my second child was born.

For me it was less about an ironclad "anything other than replacement level is unethical," more like a combination of "two is the number we wanted and could handle," plus "gee wouldn't it be nice to never have to worry about birth control ever again," with a side order of "I'm 40 fucking years old and already exhausted all the time."

I don't regret Pufflet's birth and existence. Once he arrived it became our duty to love him unconditionally and do the best we can for him.

Nor do I regret the vasectomy - though I know for some parents of special needsy kiddos there is at least some impulse of "let's try again, and get a healthier one this time." That's not a motive I endorse, but I am not in a good position to judge people in different circumstances than us.

It transcends moral philosophy.

yeah it's hard to argue reproduction is such an arbitrary and "risk" choice when it's a fucking biological imperative. sperm. egg. sexual desire.

risky

Biological imperatives can suck it

That's kinda exacerbating matters in this case

Zing

Why does ilx call babies babbies now? What have I missed?

how is babby formed

Literally a 13 year old meme

We’ve told ilxors younger than this meme

*got not told

We probably don’t but if of you would get your kids to start posting we’d have a little more life in here

i thought having more life in here wasn't the goal

How is memey formed

Aja is 13 iirc

They want the purdie shuffleexistence

the Curly shuffle

hey Moe

hey Moe

hey Moe

hey Moe

After yet another horrible night’s sleep I take it all back. Somebody have my children. They’re horrible. I regret it. I only want to wake at 5am on July Saturdays so I can bike ride.

i have starting bit at 500, 500, do i have 500

tempted, but i'm holding out for steady mike's punk cohort

warming up the eStork

i'm not hearing a bid

also, how, exactly are you warming it up?

You want a punk cohort? Here are mine vibing to that Fugazi cover on YouTube:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8Dr6LaJXZt/?igshid=8fbnl9f8w1b0

ahem CHANGE TO THE STARTING BID, we've done a reappraisal based on the latest video

do I hear $1,000, $1,000 anybody....how about you in the tweed hat and the checkered jacket?

I disassembled my shitty bed which I hate last night and I feel a lot better now