to form babby, or not to form babby

Fuck you I’ll go to Disneyland alone and swear and get told off by a monorail employee if I want

Ha! I'm still angry at the German guy who took up four teacups and filmed himself on an i-pad the whole ride

ymp's argument is basically the one my wife made when i was more unsure than her about having kids and i found it persuasive

My dilemma, centrally, is that I don’t think people are for anything, and yet I don’t know what people are having children for, and when they tell me, they sound like bad reasons!!

arg

I want there *to be* a larger proportion of kids parented by people who value kindness, tolerance, inclusion, creativity, empathy, and sustainability.

Right, I think I was just thrown off by the framing of it as some kind of child-rearing war between opposing forces.

Simon - I am not saying "other animals do it" = "so should we."

In context it's just riffing off Tomboto's "by giving her life I’ve done nothing to my daughter that hasn’t been done to every other living thing."

My dilemma, centrally, is that I don’t think people are for anything, and yet I don’t know what people are having children for, and when they tell me, they sound like bad reasons!!

the joy and terror of being a person is that people are for whatever they choose to be for - if they decide that making more people is one of the things that they're for then you're not obligated to agree with or understand their reasons

i don't understand why people like sport or eat mushrooms but i've made my peace with it

Otters (or whatever) don't miss the brunches they're not getting to enjoy; they understand they're in a species that has a biological drive to make more otters.

I think being broadly against all humans procreating is silly (and ultimately pointless), but invoking other species seems like a bad move. There are animal species that have multiple children and then kill the weakest, etc etc. I don't know otter society too well, but there are def animals that, should there only be enough brunch for one, will let their kids die.

i don't understand why people … eat mushrooms

FP'd.

to open third eye iirc

i mean how else would i meet the machine elves

In context it's just riffing off Tomboto's "by giving her life I’ve done nothing to my daughter that hasn’t been done to every other living thing."

― beelzebubbly (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 13 February 2020 16:44 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

in no way do i want to get involved in what has become "having kids, classic or dud?" but id point out that tombot wasn't responsible for doing it to every other living creature so i dont see this huge point tbh

as far as we know....

He's got a half-sibling (a few actually, but only one we're in regular contact with) who he sees once in a while when we visit the birth family, and at some point there is bound to be a lot of big questions and feelings about adoption and why his birth mom kept his younger brother but didn't keep him and I'm not sure how we're going to deal with it but it's all he's ever known so at least it won't be a shock to him

surely there’s stupid swill re child consent that involves, “hey we just put some cells in the same place, what they do is their biz— and if they want to dock on shore, seems rude to say no, but that’s up to the dock owner.”

See above; not saying other animals' behavior should be a model for our own.

Merely, if calling another being into existence (by forming babby) is a crime, then the guilt is pretty widespread.

Nonhuman animals mostly aren’t moral subjects, imo. I’m a chauvinist in this regard.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fd1nao0k9edgivc.cloudfront.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2FDark-judges-spread.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

silby: I don't know what humans were ORIGINALLY "for," and I don't think anyone does.

But, given that humans exist already, what are they "for" now? Dunno but I know that they have made some pretty good funk records, post-impressionist paintings, and high modernist novels. They're also pretty good at making video games, vibrating sex toys, and sushi.

So if I like all those things (and I do!) then it follows that I should endorse continued human existence. And - by extension - I endorse parenting, childhood, and arts education.

As for all other human endeavors (business, law, war, aquaculture, badminton, mathematics), well. I don't know what those are for but maybe they help form the basis of a world economy that allowed people to purchase Marvin Gaye records (among other laudable things).

qed: if you hate babies you also hate Marvin Gaye

baby: dont you do it

i cannot speak to the purpose of babby outside of an attempt to obtain some kind of meaning in existence generally, and feel most other reasons are imagined, performative, or desperate. i also realize “some kind of meaning” itself may sound imagined or performative or desperate.

a decision to form babby in today’s world should involve incredibly broad acceptance of moral responsibility for its emotional and social health, and its general welfare, and all of our general welfare.

For “reasons,” i think bringing more than replacement-level kids into the world is inappropriate, but i am totally aware that quantitative “judgment” is practically arbitrary. given our family position and good fortune so far, we’re at societal norms, but i figure there is practically no fair moral merit to quantitative judgment from 0 to the middle of the curve imo, regardless my opinions of same.

i think just liking and wanting a baby is fine tbh

man they can be utter magic.

confession: i have a three month old on my knee right now

reviewing my platitudinous bs, i must add that for me, i wanted to share world with babby. aaaand, i loved sharing world and experiences with babby and toddler and kiddo to about 10y/o beyond even my imagjnation. and since then it’s been v good, often stressful as hell as they really start to impose their own wills.

What is not sufficient about all other humans, including children, that you personally are compelled to bring one into being

Feel you on this one, this is thought I had back when I was having internal debate on whether I wanted kids. There's more than enough ppl already.

Further, if people "like us" don't do it, then people "not like us" win. And rest assured, they want to.

And this was my response to myself in that internal debate!

well, moreso the rest of that post than that specific line

but I also then think wtf do I care about the future of humanity, I'll be dead soon anyway, and in 4 billion years max the planet will be toast. cheers!

NB I don’t think there’s “more than enough people” per se in some Malthusian sense (and I don’t think you do either)

For “reasons,” i think bringing more than replacement-level kids into the world is inappropriate

totally read this initially in a sabermetric above replacement sense. of course my kids are above replacement value.

(you're right, I don't. Totally boggles my mind when I see traffic jam stretching to the horizon and think omg all of this material to make cars was harvested from the Earth, and this is just one tiny fraction of all the cars ever produced and then there's ships and planes and buildings and boxes of cereal and how is that possible??? so that's as close to Malthusian as I get)

that argument that a reasonable couple with good genes needs to have a baby to even out the babies being had by nutso evangelical racist bigots is definitely a thing. People are very into thinking about bébé polling numbers. i also do not like this thought process.

ya I'm more in favor of just murdering the offspring of racist bigots

I don't think there were only two options.

i dont like the “even out bad ppl babbies” thing, it’s like what, reverse euthanasia?

totally read this initially in a sabermetric above replacement sense. of course my kids are above replacement value.

omg if i have a kid it's WAR will be triple digits, guaranteed

wasn't trying to be snippy to you, Yerac

trump: “you are not the baddies, now go make some babbies.”

oh I know! I don't take anything personally here. I barely know who is talking to whom since I am all sloppy with using xposts.

My wife has been certain since she was a kid that she didn't want babby, we're 38 now and it's definitely not on the table. Having kids always seemed slightly unimaginable to me, since I'm an only child and was not around younger kids or babies almost ever. I never really wanted kids, but used to think it was inevitable and that I'd probably do it eventually if my partner wanted to.

Our life is very good, and we even have a decent amount of friends our age who don't have kids. There's an increasing number that do, of course, and the kids are great but it's also so nice to go home to a quiet house. I do sometimes wonder if I'll wake up in 10 or 15 years and feel like my life lacks meaning (like, will it seem silly to still be spending my free time slow improving at music?), but there's only one way to find out. Also I kinda think not? We're pretty good at appreciating small pleasures (like quiet, conversation, cooking, etc) and I think parenting would be disastrous for our relationship.

I do have one friend who definitely subscribes to the "cool + smart people need to have more kids, to balance out the dumb parents!" philosophy.

people just act so offended that you don't want to produce a baby that they imagine would be cute with good hair and can do a reasonable amount of math.

I do sometimes wonder if I'll wake up in 10 or 15 years and feel like my life lacks meaning (like, will it seem silly to still be spending my free time slow improving at music?), but there's only one way to find out.

]i dont like the “even out bad ppl babbies” thing, it’s like what, reverse euthanasia?

― in a mellow, balmy way (Hunt3r), Thursday, 13 February 2020 18:28 (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

catholicism iirc

kinder - it feels like it's going to be weird to talk about birth family / adoption / half-siblings stuff at some point but who knows. He'll see his half-brother (they look shockingly alike) regularly and casually refers to him at preschool, where we had to explained to his teachers that he's not making up a fake brother that nobody has ever seen. He's met his half-sister on his birth dad's side a few times and knows about her, but birth dad has two other kids who were adopted out and he has no contact with - we haven't even brought those up yet and might not for a while.

I really feel that kids just kind of absorb what they see growing up (again with the "smart / non-racist / non-asshole people having kids and giving them these values") and he's just always known about his birth family so it's hopefully "normal" to him, just like the kid in his class with two moms is totally normal. We have pictures of him at various ages being held by his birth mother, pictures with her and her mom/sister/grandmother/great grandmother, they send presents for christmas and birthdays, we facetime sometime and try to visit at least once a year.

abt Hunt3r's "share world with babby":

One of my thoughts going into parenting was that I'd prolly be a trifle bored by the first x years (Elmo, Blue's Clues, zoo, playground). But there would be a point, perhaps in the tween years, where I'd be able to take her and/or him to an art museum and really look at stuff together. (Insert your own touchstones here, whether it be "listen critically to some great records" or "cook a good meal together" or "read a great book together".) That's a lot of what my parents gave me, and I am glad of it.

Of course part of the experience is a vicarious selfish pleasure ("seeing things anew through her eyes") but also part of it can be a more generous impulse (being able to introduce a beloved person to the joys of culture, food, wine, travel, blah blah blah).

All of those hopes have turned out to be true. But not how I'd imagined. Both of my children are completely themselves, and have followed their own paths. No matter what I put in front of them. I didn't try to make my daughter into a theater kid or make her like show tunes, but she does. I didn't specifically try to make my son be interested in architecture but he is. Etc.

catholicism iirc

wow tired meme

i’m like “what person would self-identify as baddy, and so everyone will max out,” which i guess is the point of dmac’s comment.

i mean everyone is terrible, and i can’t have 8 billion babbies.