Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.
oh, this totally makes sense!
― mookieproof, Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:57 (four years ago) link
having a kid is unethical
ethics are a construct designed to improve life within a human society. when ethical constructs are pushed in the direction of absolutes, the results are always a reductio ad absurdum.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:57 (four years ago) link
hence my asterisk
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:58 (four years ago) link
my parents are both good-hearted ppl but both deeply dysfunctional, terribly insecure and immature emotionally, and i've often though "wtf were they thinking, having kids". and i've often resented being born, as i suffer the terrible, endless psychic pain that follows having inherited these traits (not genetically, but by nurture/observation)
― greta van thunberger fleetwig (rip van wanko), Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:59 (four years ago) link
So are children for being special to you or for being their own person
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Wednesday, February 12, 2020 9:56 PM (six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink
why are you acting like people acknowledging that their children add meaning to their lives is a gotcha
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:59 (four years ago) link
I love my kids unreservedly and have never regretted any aspect of parenthood, but I want to say that I respect and understand the reasons given here by people choosing not to have children. Specifically I would never feel threatened by someone making that choice, or think less of them either.
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Thursday, 13 February 2020 02:59 (four years ago) link
xp because ppl say it without acknowledging who pays for the meaning
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:01 (four years ago) link
biggest breakthrough we've had here is discovering, after 13 years, what topic can *finally* make silby act like a jerk
― mookieproof, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:05 (four years ago) link
I’ve done it several times!!
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:06 (four years ago) link
silby's comments are fine
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:07 (four years ago) link
i kind of get what silby is saying though. Like the people who only do nice things for other people because it makes themselves feel good and it's a form of impression management.
I hate this part of asian culture because there is so much expectation and duty placed on the child to give back monetarily, in later caretaking and in success as an entitlement of their parents. It's so fucked up.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:09 (four years ago) link
granted i have to quell the urge to nurture other people and place them first to my own detriment because that shit was ingrained in me and I hate it.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:10 (four years ago) link
hadn't thought about the idea of 'impression management' before, makes sense
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:15 (four years ago) link
"But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes, getting down and dirty with it. But then, the Essenes and early Christians were all dead set against procreation. Jesus seems to have thrown in with that idea, too, but less explicitly than Ecclesiastes. Sophocles was known to have said something along those lines, too. The Catholics and Mormons have other ideas, obviously. You pays yer nickel and makes yer choice.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:15 (four years ago) link
Everyone deserves to have parent(s) who love them more than all others, of course it's fair.
This is beautiful logic and a beautiful sentiment
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:22 (four years ago) link
xp i don't know that it would be better (to anyone) for anyone not to have existed, but it is most definitely the case that in the long run one person does the procreating, and the procreated does the existing, which is kind of dicey risk-assumption-wise.
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:24 (four years ago) link
Don't want kids, but would love to be an uncle. Unfortunately both my sisters didn't want kids either, and they're in their mid to late 40s. They have almost no maternal instinct. Now at least. Like my cats are cute as fuck and they just aren't enamored by them in the least (not equating kids to cats, but pets cuteness is tied into parenting instinct).
Totally feeling Tom's post about imbuing meaning to otherwise meaningless events. I do sometimes think it'd be so cool to mold a human from scratch and see the world through fresh eyes. But then I'll spend a day with my bff and his 3 young boys and I'm like yeah no, fuuuuuuuuuuuck that.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:29 (four years ago) link
lol
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:30 (four years ago) link
His kids LOVE me. Partially cause I'm only around once or twice a year, and partially because our other best friend is a very cold, detached person who hates kids (though he is nice enough to the boys and shows affection in certain ways eg buying them stuff). But partially cause I do enjoy being around kids in short bursts and have no qualms with being goofy af with them.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:32 (four years ago) link
I'm very happy with how my life is going. I enjoy my freedom. Why would I want to change it completely at this point. Compromising my freedom to accommodate my girlfriend's wants and needs is plenty for me and my selfishness.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:35 (four years ago) link
Btw very interesting to read everyone's perspectives here
Matthew K's comment that everyone deserves to have parents who love them more than all others is so right imo
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:38 (four years ago) link
And my parents esp my mom are fucking saints. Never an iota of pressure from them on myself or my sisters about "so when are we gonna get some grandchildren??". They're great parents all around and I have zero complaints about my childhood. Which makes it bizarre that none of the 3 of us "kids" want kids of our own!
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:38 (four years ago) link
My sister has a kid and will likely have more; it would be cool to be a real uncle and influence them and whatnot but they're country people through and through thanks to my brother in law. Oh well.
― bold caucasian eroticism (Simon H.), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:41 (four years ago) link
To j’s thought experiment in ethics, I’d like to see the science on what nonexistent people would be most likely to choose, if they existed and had a choiceI mean we’ve all had to exist, by giving her life I’ve done nothing to my daughter that hasn’t been done to every other living thingI’m sure if we go down this rabbit hole enough we’ll come out as vomit
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:51 (four years ago) link
I basically share j.'s view
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:52 (four years ago) link
It truly is a gift of life. If one doesn't want it, there are 6 million ways to return it.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:56 (four years ago) link
no see I don't want to die, that's the whole point
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:56 (four years ago) link
if I were never born I wouldn't have to be here, not wanting to die
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:57 (four years ago) link
except for when I do want to die, which is hardly preferable!
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 03:59 (four years ago) link
I worry about how the next generation in my family will fare
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:00 (four years ago) link
I think it’s insulting to be told that I’m either unethical or quasi-religious with no room for argument. Especially when the razor is “well, did your babby ask to be existed” - just call me a breeder and fuck off, I’ll try to not bother you any more than necessary.
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:00 (four years ago) link
the key point is not the choice to exist but the negative value of the unchosen irremediably unhappy life; you could feel relatively confident that that won't be YOUR kid's lot and probabilistically maybe it won't be but if it is it'll still be their unhappy life rather than (notwithstanding your sympathetic misery lol) yours
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:01 (four years ago) link
tom, i think there is a possibly non-religious alternative, but on the scale on which these things are measured it seems suspiciously religious in its optimism; basically, if you think it is open to human beings to learn, in an effective way, how to make themselves happy (a la traditional views about knowledge of 'human nature'), then you have some reason to think that the little bastard won't be that bad off and if they are they have themselves to blame rather than you. depends on the limits of 'effective' for the human capacity to lead a good life tho.
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:05 (four years ago) link
xp but that is the case for everyone forever
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:05 (four years ago) link
yes that is why the proof is so good
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:07 (four years ago) link
but as i said, margins too small, etc
if people had bought into this argument at any point, it would have been impossible to ride the new harry potter roller coaster at universal studios orlando, so it’s bullshit. More future people having potentially happier lives dilutes and maybe even compensates for the suffering of life on the whole. It’s not religious to say there are more people living better lives today than ever before in history.
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:23 (four years ago) link
meager consolation for the ones who aren't, though!
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:31 (four years ago) link
I really have to resist the urge to fall back on a descriptivist retort to this as well. If VHEMT has such a strong case, why aren’t they selling more t-shirts?
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:36 (four years ago) link
don't know about this conversation, but I think people do good things for other people for altruistic reasons
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:48 (four years ago) link
you must be quasi-religious
― El Tomboto, Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:50 (four years ago) link
I’m actually religious because I couldn’t come up with any other good ways of not wanting to die.
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 04:52 (four years ago) link
xps sure they do dan! sometimes. and generally parents love their children. but loving them and being able to do their existing for them are two different things.
tom, i agree that there is some obscurity about how this argument applies to questions about the reproduction of the species. but for most people the salient question is not how they are helping reproduce the species, but what their relation to their child is.
and if you actually are feeling indignant about the 'religious' remark, i think that a) a sincere faith of some kind that existence can be good for your children despite your inability to guarantee it (per the argument under discussion), whether through a divine providence, or some means of redemption (a la the traditional non-philosophical alternatives i mentioned above), just seems like the most normal thing to appeal to in order to bridge the problems with knowledge and risk involved. in other circumstances this is just as well called 'trust' or 'confidence' but given the structure of the issue it seems apt to recognize that the most credible versions of these for addressing the issue are religious in nature (which i do understand to mean, not credible, from many perspectives). nevertheless, b) people generally muddle into having kids and have a combination of self-serving and admirable motives which, if they are well-intentioned and competent, generally become more admirable as the kids are born and lovingly raised. all the argument does is identify a way in which the endeavor exposes the child to a certain kind of 'risk' (for reasons that aimless first alluded to, it's not obvious that the term even has a clear application here) which gives the prospective begetter a strong reason not to beget, IF they take seriously that the fundamental asymmetry involved creates an ethical hazard. presumably most parents are already acquainted with some perception of this, in their concern for their children; the argument just defines what might seem regrettable or guilty-feeling in that perception.
― j., Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:05 (four years ago) link
NB i want to clarify that as a Jew my religious reason for not wanting to die is not some expectation of the afterlife or whatever but just that I’m commanded to not want to die and that’s the only thing working for me.
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:18 (four years ago) link
silby I'm counting on you being on this message board for the rest of my life
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:24 (four years ago) link
Don’t worry babe I’ll never stop posting
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:26 (four years ago) link
I'd be willing to adopt you. But I might make you wear a panda costume.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:34 (four years ago) link
ugh...that came off weird. I am not into furries.
― Yerac, Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:35 (four years ago) link
― Dan S, Thursday, 13 February 2020 05:36 (four years ago) link